TRANSCRIPT
Office Ladies | Episode 228 - An Interview with Kathy Bates
Jenna [00:00:04] I'm Jenna Fischer.
Angela [00:00:05] And I'm Angela Kinsey.
Jenna [00:00:06] We were on the office together.
Angela [00:00:08] And we're best friends.
Jenna [00:00:09] And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Lovers podcast just for you.
Angela [00:00:13] Each week, we will dive deeper into the world of the office with exclusive interviews, behind the scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.
Jenna [00:00:21] We're the office ladies 6.0.
Angela [00:00:26] Hi there.
Jenna [00:00:27] We are so excited because today we get to share our interview with Kathy Bates.
Angela [00:00:34] Kathy. Flippin Bates.
Jenna [00:00:38] We got to zoom with Kathy Bates, Lady. I'm still kind of pinching myself about it.
Angela [00:00:43] I still yeah, me too. Like, even afterwards, I was like, We just spent over an hour. Yeah, we talked for so long, right with Kathy Bates?
Jenna [00:00:51] Yes. You guys know that Kathy Bates appeared in eight episodes of The Office over season six and seven. She was Sabers CEO Joe Bennett, and she shares some really fond memories about her time on the show.
Angela [00:01:06] I mean, you know, she's just a legend. We are so fortunate that we got to work with her, have this amazing conversation with her. She has won an Academy Award, two Emmy Awards, two Golden Globe Awards and two Screen Actors Guild Awards. She is currently starring in the new CBS series Matlock. It's a huge hit, and I'm sure she's going to add more awards to that shelf.
Jenna [00:01:30] For sure. I love Matlock.
Angela [00:01:33] Me, too. We both started. We've been watching it, it is so good. It had me from the minute like that first scene in the coffee shop.
Jenna [00:01:41] My gosh. The pilot is one of the best pilots I've seen. I told her that, too.
Angela [00:01:46] Yeah.
Jenna [00:01:47] Well, we want to share a little bit about her new series so that when we're talking with her about it, you have some context. Kathy Bates plays a wealthy retired lawyer named Madeleine Kingston, and she returns to practicing law as a way to seek justice for the death of her daughter, Ellie, who died as a result of the opioid epidemic.
Angela [00:02:09] But now you don't find that out till the end.
Jenna [00:02:11] Of the pilot. Yeah. Yes, that's right. When we meet her, we meet her in her fake identity as a sort of, like, needy widow named Maddy Matlock.
Angela [00:02:22] Who had, like, a crappy ex-husband.
Jenna [00:02:24] Yes. And she's raising her grandson on her own. And she is raising her grandson, but not on her own because her husband's still living.
Angela [00:02:32] And her husband is nice.
Jenna [00:02:33] And her husband is great. Stay with us. And she gets a job at the law firm that she believes has hid evidence that could have saved her daughter's life.
Angela [00:02:45] And the whole pilot is sort of her sneaking her way into the law firm, and she ends up in the big conference room meeting, and she blows them away. It's a very bad ass moment. And they decide to give her, like, a two weeks temporary hire to see how she's going to shake out.
Jenna [00:03:01] Yeah, kind of test run. So she's in. She's very excited. Here's the thing. I just loved this conference room scene. They're all having this meeting and they're in litigation with this other company and they're trying to figure out like, what would this company be willing to settle at? Right. What would they be willing to settle at? And all of a sudden, like from the back of the room, you hear her be like, I know the number they're willing to settle at. And I'll tell you what it is. If you give me a job and everyone's like, Who is this lady? Right? Where did she come from? And then she goes on to explain how she found out the number they're willing to settle for. And it's much higher than this law firm thought. I actually thought we should listen because I loved it so much.
Angela [00:03:43] Yeah, it's a great scene.
Jenna [00:03:45] Here it is.
CLIP FROM SHOW [00:03:47] Let's avoid traps, then. How do you know the number?
CLIP FROM SHOW (Kathy) [00:03:49] Well, you see, there's this funny thing that happens when women age. We become damn near invisible. Not that I'm complaining. I had my moment in the sun. Plus, it's useful because nobody sees us coming. That's how I got through your security several times. And it's also how I knew that Peabodys counsel grabs coffee and updates his client between 815 and 825.
CLIP FROM SHOW [00:04:15] What's the number?
CLIP FROM SHOW (Kathy) [00:04:17] Am I hired?
CLIP FROM SHOW [00:04:17] No one is hired without a two week trial. What's their ceiling?
CLIP FROM SHOW (Kathy) [00:04:22] 23 million. Which means I just made you $4 million. Do I still need a two week trial?
Jenna [00:04:29] It's so good.
Angela [00:04:30] So good.
Jenna [00:04:31] But I think what I like about the show is how, you know, people doubting you or people not believing in you or people not seeing you like that can be really hard, but you can also turn it to your advantage.
Angela [00:04:46] Yeah.
Jenna [00:04:46] And make it work for you. And I really like that.
Angela [00:04:50] You know, there's a thing about this character that reminded me of something Phyllis said to you. Years ago. She knew all the scoop happening on the set.
Jenna [00:05:01] She always knew all the best gossip.
Angela [00:05:03] All the best gossip. And. But she wasn't a gossip. She was not chatty. She did not share it. And Jenna has shared this before on the podcast. But one time Jenna was like, Phyllis, how do you know everything? And she goes, Well, when you're invisible, you know...
Jenna [00:05:16] People say stuff around you.
Angela [00:05:17] Say stuff around you.
Jenna [00:05:19] She's like, I think people don't notice me. Yeah, I hear it all.
Angela [00:05:23] Yeah.
Jenna [00:05:24] Well, Angela, you have a Matlock fun fact to share with us.
Angela [00:05:28] I do. Rainn Wilson and Miller Hardin both guest starred in the original Matlock series. And Linda Purl, a.k.a. Helene Beasley, played Charlene Matlock in 23 episodes of the original series.
Jenna [00:05:43] Little Office Matlock connection there.
Angela [00:05:45] Yeah.
Jenna [00:05:46] Well, something else about Kathy Bates is that she and I are both breast cancer survivors. Kathy is actually a two time cancer survivor. Kathy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2003 and breast cancer in 2012 after being treated for breast cancer. She developed lymphedema and she is now the spokesperson of the lymphatic Education and Research network. And she talked with us about that as well. I really appreciated getting to talk with her about this. When you are a cancer patient, there's a language that goes with it. I say to my other breast cancer ladies like we speak cancer. And so I got to kind of speak that language with her a little bit and feel really heard. She was so kind.
Angela [00:06:34] She was very kind and thoughtful. And one of the biggest takeaways from just getting a chance to talk to her for me was how committed she is to making a difference and to helping others. And I really admired her for that.
Jenna [00:06:48] Yeah, I really admire her, too, you know she's talked about this desire to be useful. And her character talks about that on Matlock being useful, and that's something that I felt with my own journey. If I could just make this somehow useful.
Angela [00:07:06] Yeah.
Jenna [00:07:07] It keeps me going. I really identified with that when she talked about that. But guys, it was just an honor to have worked with her and to have her on the podcast. We're going to take a quick break and then our interview with Kathy Bates.
Kathy [00:07:33] Hi. How are you?
Angela [00:07:35] Well, thank you.
Jenna [00:07:37] Who's this puppy on your lap?
Kathy [00:07:40] This is Zelda. Yeah, she's in a licking mode. I don't know why. Hi, how are you guys?
Jenna [00:07:51] It's so fun to get to see you again after all these years.
Kathy [00:07:56] I know. It's been. Let's see. I think I did the show in 11, like, 12 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. 12, 13 years ago. It's been a long time.
Angela [00:08:09] Lot of life has happened.
Kathy [00:08:11] Yes, indeed it has. How are you guys?
Jenna [00:08:15] We're good. We're loving this new job of podcasting. Kathy, I only got dressed on the top. Look at this. I got my pajama pants on the bottom.
Kathy [00:08:29] I didn't even get dressed. I'm still in bed.
Jenna [00:08:34] You are a master podcaster, then.
Angela [00:08:36] Already and we're basically in our closets here. This is a closet.
Jenna [00:08:41] I'm in a closet.
Kathy [00:08:42] I see.
Jenna [00:08:45] That's how we do it. Kathy, thank you so much for joining us today. We are so excited to talk with you about The Office, about your new show, Matlock. We are huge fans of Matlock.
Kathy [00:09:00] Thank you.
Angela [00:09:01] Yes, we are loving it, Kathy.
Jenna [00:09:04] Yeah. Maybe after the interview is over, we can ask you spoiler questions. And we also want to talk about your work with the lymphatic Education and Research Network.
Kathy [00:09:15] Yes.
Jenna [00:09:16] Do you mind if we start with the office?
Kathy [00:09:19] No, I don't mind at all. Let's begin.
Angela [00:09:22] Okay. I'll kick us off with our first question, and it's one we ask all of our guests that were on the office, and it's how did you get your job on the office?
Kathy [00:09:32] I think they just offered it to me. I was very lucky. I had not seen the show that much, but I watched a great deal of it when I was preparing for the show and everyone was so brilliant and so effortless, you guys. I don't know how you did it. I felt like when I was doing it, I was really running to catch up and it was a learning curve. I don't know if it was like that for you guys when you started working on the show, but working with three different cameras and the level and, you know, the comedy that you guys did, I felt that I was really trying to get the feel of that and trying to do that. I always felt after I did an episode that I wasn't sure if I'd really done it the best I could.
Jenna [00:10:21] That's so interesting. I mean, our perspective was that you were nailing it.
Angela [00:10:28] Like, from the get go. Yeah. You walked in as Joe Bennett. I would have thought you'd been Joe Bennett your whole life.
Kathy [00:10:35] Really?
Angela [00:10:36] Yes.
Jenna [00:10:37] Yeah. It was such a fully realized character from the beginning.
Kathy [00:10:42] Wow. Well, I think I was nervous because you guys do the comedy so well, and I don't think of myself as a comedian. And that you worked with the cameras so well. Was that a learning curve for you? I mean, did you when you started out on it? When did you start doing it?
Jenna [00:11:01] With the camera?
Kathy [00:11:03] Yes.
Jenna [00:11:04] Well, the camera was part of my audition.
Angela [00:11:06] Yes, same.
Jenna [00:11:07] So from even the audition process, they were wanting me to relate to or not relate to the camera, throw looks to the camera and I just studied the British version to prepare for my audition to watch because that was such a new idea. And also the idea, not just that you would relate to the camera, but that you would be embarrassed that the camera picked up on something that maybe you didn't want it to.
Angela [00:11:39] Yeah. Yeah. Kathy, I remember I was really nervous about how to interact with the camera in our pilot episode. You know, the supporting cast, We were just the background, you know? It was a real lesson in patience. And you just had to wait for that moment, you know, when you finally got to have a little interaction. But we spent so much time in the background and my nose was itching so bad one day and I thought, I can't scratch it because I'm on camera. That's weird. And I was, God, I wanted to scratch it so bad. And I went up to Ken Kwapis, our director, and he must have thought I was like, so silly. I was like Ken, my nose was really itching in that last take and I scratched it and I'm so sorry. And he was like, Angela, you are living a life. Live a life. And the camera captures what it captures. If your nose itches, scratch it.
Kathy [00:12:29] Yeah.
Angela [00:12:30] That was sort of an eye opening moment for me about how to just be in the background.
Kathy [00:12:35] Yeah. One of the episodes that I think I wish I had prepared for first was when Joe comes in and starts talking about the printers. You know, I would like to have gone back and done that and really gone to town with it. But the other ones I really loved working with or I mean, Carrell, Steve Carrell, I couldn't get over what a fantastic actor and improvizationalist he is. So for me, it was great to be around people like him and John and a whole bunch of the guys and gals just to try and learn from them how they do what they do because it's invisible. Does that make sense?
Angela [00:13:19] Yeah. Yeah, it does. That You don't feel like you're watching someone act when you watch Steve. Like I never do. I always believed him. He just is such a natural in whatever role he puts on. I don't see him acting.
Kathy [00:13:32] I didn't see him as DuPont.
Angela [00:13:35] What was that?
Kathy [00:13:37] Didn't he play DuPont? He was nominated for an Academy Award.
Jenna [00:13:41] I was trying to remember the name of the movie, Foxcatcher.
Kathy [00:13:45] That's right. Yes, yes, yes. I was watching it with a friend and we were in about 15 minutes and he said, you know who that is? I said, no. Who is that? He said that's Steve Carell. I said. You've got to be kidding me. I can't believe that Steve Carrell. I mean, he was just he disappeared into the character. But back on on working with him at the office, I just wish I could have learned more from him. You know, I certainly enjoyed working on the show. I thought it was a lot of fun. I did have a problem transitioning from lines that were written and then the improvization that we were allowed to do. I don't know if I ever really succeeded. I kept getting tripped up on that. But it was a wonderful experience. I know toward the end, since Steve was leaving, they were interested in me possibly staying on. And I had gone on to do Harry's Law. But, you know, I don't want to cast aspersions on anybody, but I think it would have been fun to stay on the office, you know.
Jenna [00:14:53] We would have would loved that for sure.
Kathy [00:14:58] And really develop that character more. You know.
Angela [00:15:01] She had so much you know, she was so layered. I mean, the scenes between Michael and Joe on the private plane were just so brilliant. I loved those. I wanted to see more of her world. Like, where does she go? And the Great Danes and your outfits and your hair. Were you a part of the look of Joe Bennett?
Kathy [00:15:19] Yeah. I had this fur coat that I had found that was kind of strips of fur that that was kind of really, kind of low class. But I insisted on wearing that. But it's just so inappropriate. And I think, yes, we worked on the hair and the look for her, and it's been a while. So forgive me, I can't remember the wonderful people that worked with me on that to really create something that was out of style. You know, I think you figure that it's what they say when you figure out what style looks good on you. You stay with it regardless of your age or anything or fashion. And also just your swagger. You know, I felt she had a lot of swagger and that she was probably a bull in a China shop. That's that's how she ran her company was it was sort of steamrolling over everybody and with her money. And I loved the Great Danes, I really did. They were great. There was one scene where I said, Let's have the Great Dane, we have to have one of them staring over my shoulder.
Jenna [00:16:27] Yes, I remember that. It's so brilliant.
Kathy [00:16:31] Yeah. The trainers walk around with a lot of baby diapers, the old fashioned ones, because those dogs slobber a lot.
Jenna [00:16:40] So would they wipe them with the baby wipe?
Jenna [00:16:42] Yeah, they keep their slobber there from coming out, and they were okay because he is leaving now because we're talking about the dogs. They were a mother and a son, actually. And I think they weighed about 120 pounds each. Just huge, but really sweet. You know, not really, you know, not really bright. But they were you know, we had fun with them. And I loved the scene where one was looking over my shoulder.
Angela [00:17:11] So when that one looks over your shoulder, its head is bigger than your, it's presence on camera Is so big.
Kathy [00:17:19] Yeah, We kept trying to get him to bark. I don't know if we ever succeeded. I can't remember now.
Jenna [00:17:24] What was it like for you to be reunited with Rainn Wilson? He shared with us that you gave him his big break on Six Feet Under.
Kathy [00:17:32] You know what? He was so funny. And I'll always have this memory. He came up for some reason. We were shooting in Ruth's room, and he had just been hired at the funeral home. And so he was rushing out the door. He had to do something. We gave him something to do. We had to go do it really quickly. And he ran out into the hallway and he took a right. And then there was this pause, and he ran, left because he realized he didn't know where he was going because it was a completely new environment for him. And I thought, my God, this guy is brilliant. It was such an amazing choice. It was a shock. He was so wonderful to work with, so inventive, so funny. Well, all of the things that you saw working with him on the show, I'm sure. When I worked with him on your show, he evolved quite a bit, you know, as an actor. And he's a very funny guy. Really, really liked working with him.
Angela [00:18:28] Well, you know, we are both watching Matlock and we are loving it. I mean, everyone is loving it. Kathy. It has just taken off like wildfire. And we would love to talk to you about it.
Kathy [00:18:40] Well, I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah, we're we're the numbers are just crazy. They are just off the charts. And the best part about it is that everybody involved with it, whether it's the President of the studio, Amy Reisenbach, who's been our big fan. And David Stapf, the President of the studio. They're all so normal, you know, and they're accessible. They communicate and they send emails and, you know, they came to our last table read. And I've never had that happen before. And then, of course, there's Jenny Urman, who created Jane the Virgin. And she's brilliant. Her mind works like a Rubik's Cube. And the layers that she's created in this series is just fascinating. And I'm also an executive producer on the show, so they send me the episodes to take a look at, see if I have any suggestions. And I mean, it's just, I can't wait. I can't wait for what's coming up. And we're all so excited. I mean, the love and the accessibility of Jenny, her excitement, her passion is even though she wears all the hats, is just not anything I've really experienced, that kind of creativity, collaboration. We're both after just making the work the best it can be. It's the work. It's about the work. So when I first met Jenny, you know, I first read the script and was I was reading along. It seemed like it was just episodic, you know, that it was a case of the week. Yes. And then, of course, there's the twist at the end. And I was thrilled because I think, okay, now this is about substance. It's about something. It's about something meaningful. It's something I can really sink my teeth into. And I read it on a Friday. I met with her on a Monday and I said, Don't change a word. I want to do this. And then we started talking about the character and where it was going and that being who she was, where she came from, all of the things, how she had planned this all out with her grandson, you know, And it was it was fascinating. I never imagined playing a character like this.
Jenna [00:21:09] You're really playing two characters, right? So you're playing this sort of like like, explain that to people. Because if you watch the first episode, if you watch the pilot, it's one of the best pilots of anything I've ever seen. I remember seeing the pilot for Breaking Bad and thinking, Wow, that was a great pilot. And I felt the same way when I saw the pilot for Matlock.
Kathy [00:21:33] Wow.
Jenna [00:21:33] The twist at the end is genius. But you had me from the minute you stood at that coffee counter.
Angela [00:21:39] Yeah.
Jenna [00:21:40] And you're bumbling. You get a guy to pay for your coffee. And you trick your way in to this law firm into their boardroom, into a job. It is amazing.
Kathy [00:21:58] I think so, too. I mean, I had to keep asking Jenny questions about, is this possible? I remember asking a friend of mine who in corporate law, not corporate law, but he's in the corporate world. He's a dear friend of mine. And I said, Could you do this? Could you do this? And he thought about it for a minute. He said, Yeah, I could. And then I don't have kids. So I talked to my niece. She has a daughter who's now grown. And I said, But could you do this? Could you be this, you know, devious and deceitful and lie to people all the time for your daughter? And she said, yes. She said, when you're a mother, your love for your child is savage. And I loved, of course, the fact that she's older. I would never have believed that I could have done a series like this at my age, I've been asked to do one and that we've gotten letters from people from women who say, Thank you. I don't feel invisible anymore. I think that you'll see as the series goes on that Matlock is really falling in love with being a lawyer again. You know, she was in mourning for years and years and then her grandson saw this Reddit post and said, you know, this is a way to get back at them. So then they spent two years putting everything together. The apartment in Queens, you know, they thought of everything. And it's been a way for them to get closer and really be useful again in their lives and become rejuvenated. So I think that's one of the engines that drives Maddie. There's no substitute for reality. You know, she can plan everything she wants, but she doesn't expect to be a trial lawyer. And you find out later on in the third episode that she went into a contract law because of a sexual abuse experience instead of going into litigation, which is what she really wanted. And I'm jumping all over here. But that was the seminal moment for her that she was really able to make a difference with that she was able to remember her own sexual assault and it changed her opinion about what young women go through nowadays. And it also shows not just the sexual assault, which is what we all talk about and how bad that is and how prevalent that is. But it talks about what happens then. What happens after? Do you make a different career choice for women that are trying to get into show business and they get into trouble and they're going into a really bad situation? What happens to them after that? And in this case, we see Marty taking a divergent path, one that she wasn't happy with. And she didn't realize that until she met this young woman. So the fact that she's learning all of this from everyone is a very powerful thing to say in an episodic television show on network.
Jenna [00:25:19] Well, I think one of the things to me about this show that I find so compelling is that there is a trial of the week, right? Every week there is a trial. We're going to see the beginning, middle, and we're going to see the conclusion of it. But there's also this through line, which is that she's investigating this firm. She's trying to find out who hid this evidence, who hid these documents that might have, if they had been revealed, saved her daughter's life. And so she's both undercover as almost like a detective. But in the meantime, she is trying cases. And I love how each week the case finds a way to help her learn something about herself.
Kathy [00:26:06] Yes. Yes.
Jenna [00:26:07] You know I just love that. I mean, I found the case really powerful when she's trying to help the two women get punitive damages from the baby food company because the baby food company, the formula killed their baby.
Angela [00:26:28] I was going to say, the idea, you know, I'm 53, but I'm still discovering things about myself and that life is a discovery. You don't age out of discovery. And I think sometimes we dismiss that. We think that we can't discover new things about ourselves. And I've really connected to that.
Kathy [00:26:47] I agree. Yeah, I agree. That's a really good point.
Jenna [00:26:53] I love that.
Angela [00:26:54] I loved this line, too, Kathy. I wrote it down because I loved it so much in the elevator scene in the pilot. But your character says lots of time in life we become exactly who people expect us to be. And I just thought that was so powerful, especially as a mom, you know, just making sure what I'm putting out there to my kids, that I'm not writing something for them in a limited way, that their vision of their life can be as big as as they hope for it to be and that I'm not putting them in any tiny, small space.
Kathy [00:27:27] That's great. I never had the courage to be a mom. I just put everything into my career. That was what I wanted to do. And so in a different way, I'm evolving as an actor. Every time I do something, I want to learn from it. And one of the most valuable things, as I was saying, being a producer and being able to see the cuts, I'm learning things about my acting like bad habits, you know, that I want to change without restricting myself. But we're always learning. We're always evolving as as artists, as people. We're trying to learn from our experiences and seeing that happen in a show like this is so-- I think that's one of the reasons people are so attracted to it. And it's it's people from all walks of life, which is what I really like. You know, we've gotten notes and letters from people that, you know, a guy that works the barn where one of our wonderful directors, Kat Coiro. They have I think they board a couple of ponies there for their kids. And, you know, this guy went home and and watched the show after work and just really enjoyed it. Just really laughed and just escaped and, you know, just really had a good time. And we were entertaining. And you want to spend time with these characters and see what's going to happen to them next. And I just I feel so grateful that everyone on the show, I think that even the crew there was a sense when we came back to do episode two because it was the first time we shot in America. We shot the pilot in Toronto. So when we came back to do it here, there was just this buzz and this excitement about getting ready to do this show and the crew. You could feel it on the set. It was just it was it was new to me to feel that. And so we would all go around looking at each other or even the day players or the guest cast that would come in would just be looking at us going, my God, we can't believe it's like this. How is this? We've never worked on a show like this. So it's not just the material that we're putting out for everybody. It's also the experience of doing it every day and the joy of connecting and being vulnerable to one another so that the work really blossoms and you learn something about yourself. You learn something about your character. So I guess it would be three different things. It's being an actor, being the mom, you know, who's Madeline, who's on a mission, and being a woman who's really falling in love with what she she wanted to do all of her life. So it's sometimes we think we feel like Jenny lives in our heads because all of the things that we're feeling sometimes just end up there. Just amazing moments. All I can say is I'm grateful. I'm just so grateful to have this experience and to bring everything. A dear friend of mine who was working with me on the pilot when he was an actor, his acting coach said, Look, you know, you have your chest of drawers here. You know, a whole series of drawers and you pull this door open and there's this stuff that you can use and you pull another door open and you pull stuff out of there that you can use. And so it created that kind of image for myself, like an apothecary, where this drawer has this. And I had to do a lot of digging in order to run right into that conference room and have the confidence to to look people in the eye to be free enough to do that. So it wasn't just learning the dialog. It was creating a whole new character that we've never seen before. And it took a lot of digging because this woman is in a tremendous amount of pain and she's in a tremendous amount of rage and guilt for not being able to save her daughter herself. And because she was so busy working and because the opioids are so powerful. There's an episode we have coming up where I think we had it last week where she talks to the grandson of the brand says, Why didn't my mom stop taking drug? Why couldn't she stopped taking the drugs? And then Maddie says she did many times. And we got a letter from somebody that said it was so important to know that we just don't we're not just addicts. We keep trying. We keep trying. Keep trying. And I remember being I don't know whether I had fallen or what it was. And I was in bed and they gave me something like that. And my body just completely relaxed, no pain anywhere. And I thought, okay, I get it. I get it, you know? And we did a lot of research about that, although we don't talk about it a lot in the show per se, because there's all this other stuff going on. But we all wanted to understand Jenny and Kat and I were like sending, Have you read this? Have you read that? Because I didn't understand anything about that at the beginning, how documents could be buried because I was focused only on the sacklers and how only one law firm could have buried documents that would have had an effect that they had come out with it.
Jenna [00:33:10] Yeah.
Kathy [00:33:11] Or we don't know yet, you will know by the end, the case will be solved. You will know who buried the documents.
Jenna [00:33:20] Well, here's my question. Your character, because she's undercover and she's working with people, she's bonding with some of these people. And I think we know that the two young associates that you work with were not there at the time of the burying of the documents. So those are safe bonds to make, but pretty much everyone else is fair game. And I am so curious to see who it will be and what conflict your character is going to have after inevitably episode by episode, you start liking these people.
Kathy [00:33:56] Of course, and I think you're right about the kids and I think there are times, she bonds with Billy right away. He's very loving and kind to her from the very beginning. So they're already their relationship has started to grow. And you'll see later on as the season goes on that she's very supportive of him. And I think there was a moment where I looked at him and I thought. Wow, that could have been my daughter. She always wanted to be a lawyer. And that was a real moment of discovery for me as the character. To to realize that if she had just been able. If I had just been able, you know. So there's that. And then I think this relationship with Sky P. Marshall, who plays Olympia, who's phenomenal right from the beginning when we worked together in Toronto, there was this trust, this vulnerability, this openness. She literally had this role reading an article in Backstage.
Jenna [00:35:03] Wow.
Kathy [00:35:04] But they were doing this show thing. Yeah. And she went after it. She had her manager call. She doesn't have an agent. And she said, I want to get there. I know it's going to be hard. I know they're probably going to go with the name, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then it ended up between four women and she was one of them. And I went for the chemistry read with her and we were all just so taken by her. And it's, you know, that first big moment they have together in the pilot when they're talking about when she says, I identify with this man who's been in prison. You're identifying with the woman, the white woman, you know, in suburbia. Yeah. And that being on the other side of the camera when she's talking, just the power of that. And even when the director came in, it changed a little bit. It was just and the power of it. And it's things that are going along. You'll see that the relationship developing and it's a real push pull.
Jenna [00:36:05] Do you think you'll direct any episodes of Matlock?
Kathy [00:36:08] Well, they asked me to direct the last one, and then when I saw what Kat was going through and all the fact that the technology has changed so much, I thought, I think it's too much for me this season. You know, maybe next season when I can get I don't know, it was such a tremendous responsibility and I could really only focus on the character and the thought of directing and doing that at the same time now, you know, when I'm still learning all this stuff would be just so I said I can't do it. And they said, Wait a minute, You know, just wait. See how you feel about the middle of the season. And I said, Guys, I can't get to this. So but I'd love to do it. I'd love to direct one.
Jenna [00:36:55] Well, the way you talk about it and the way your face lights up and the way you talk about the people and the crew and the experience, it just reminds me so much of working on The Office.
Kathy [00:37:05] Yes.
Angela [00:37:07] Yes. So much. Especially Kathy, when you were talking about how how exciting it is to get the scripts and have an input. You know, there was such a creative collaboration. Greg Daniels set the tone for that that we could go to the writers and we could pitch ideas to them. And that was so powerful and meaningful even as a supporting cast member. So I love that. And you see it in the work. You see the creative collaboration. It's why we're hooked from the minute you're on screen. That cast is so fantastic. I really love the cast and we can't wait, you know, we'll keep talking about it.
Kathy [00:37:41] Well, I think I feel like for a minute I felt you were talking about the office, you know, because it's the same way. I mean, you guys, you are full blown people. And there was, as you said before, you're living. That's what I always saying to Jenny. I don't want to play Mattie. I want to be Mattie. So that's what you guys were doing. And the feeling on this set of the office is I thought you were talking about you guys. It's the same thing.
Angela [00:38:12] It is. It's the same thing. Well, you know, we also would love to talk to you about your advocacy work and your recent health journey. And I know Jenna had reached out to you, and I would love to start that part of this conversation.
Angela [00:38:28] Right. Jenna, can you tell me where you are in terms of your I know I heard that you had breast cancer. Could you tell me a little bit about where you are in that journey?
Jenna [00:38:39] Sure. So I was diagnosed last December, December 2023. In January, I had a lumpectomy and then I had reconstructive surgery. I had a breast reduction and lift. And what they were able to do was take some of my own breast tissue and sort of fill in the hole where they removed the cancer. So I was I was reconstructed on the one side using my own tissue, and then they made the other side match. And then I did 12 rounds of Taxol chemotherapy. I got that once a week, and I did three weeks of radiation. And my breast cancer is triple positive. So it was positive for estrogen progesterone and her, too. And so for a year, I receive these immunotherapy infusions of a drug called Herceptin, which is a miracle drug that was discovered in my lifetime before this drug was introduced to the treatment plan for women with her two positive breast cancers. The survival rate was one of the lowest of the breast cancer diagnoses, and now it's one of the highest. And so I feel very blessed that this is part of my treatment plan. And so I've got a few more infusions of that ahead of me. I get those once every three weeks, and then I will be on Tamoxifen, which is an estrogen blocker for five years. And that that's my treatment plan. So I'm I'm finished with the big three, as I called them, the, the surgery, the chemo and the radiation. And now I'm I still have a few things, you know, ahead of me. But I you know, I'm I'm writing waves of random side effects every day. It's a little different. You know, it's, I don't know if you can relate, but one of the hardest parts of this whole process has been just the intense need for flexibility on a day to day basis according to what my body can do. You know, and and that's hard for me because I'm a real planner. I love a schedule. I love to do what I say I was going to do. And so so that's kind of where I am in the process.
Kathy [00:41:16] Well, I'm jealous.
Jenna [00:41:18] Tell me.
Kathy [00:41:20] Well, because I had breast cancer. Let's see. I think right as I started after I started working with you guys, it was 2012.
Angela [00:41:31] Yeah.
Angela [00:41:32] And I had a very bad experience with it. I had ovarian in 2003 and for some reason, even though I went through nine rounds of chemo for that, that was the chemo was really hard. It was we had to do I can't remember the names of the drugs, but I remember they gave me steroids and then I would be coming off the steroids and just getting I don't know if you've gone through that, but that's been really difficult. That was very difficult.
Jenna [00:42:09] I got steroids before each round of chemo. And I found that the steroids, the the side effects of the steroids having me be real amped and then crashing kind of right as the chemo would hit me. That was that was a rough couple of days. Yeah.
Kathy [00:42:27] Yeah. That was what really that was difficult for me. But with the breast cancer that that sort of came out of nowhere, I was speaking at Sloan-Kettering about being a cancer survivor with ovarian cancer and then came home and discovered I had breast cancer, which was kind of ironic because it ran in my runs in my family. I said, you know, just take both off because I had mainly it was in my left breast, but there were some troubling things in my right breast. And I research a lumpectomy, which is what you did. And I discovered that it would take me I would have to come back every three months to make sure that everything was okay. And I just didn't want to go through that headache. And I'd seen my mother go through it and only have one breast removed and it wasn't good. So she was physically lopsided. And so I decided to have them both removed. I didn't opt for reconstruction. I don't know why. I think at the time I just I didn't want to do it. And they put drains in and they're very thick, heavy plastic drains,.
Jenna [00:43:44] I'm familiar. I had the drains, yes.
Kathy [00:43:47] Yeah. And for some reason on the left side, it must have hit a nerve. I don't know what it was, but it was so painful. And I realized when they removed it, that's what the extra pain was. And that's when I kept screaming at my doctors about I want my meds, I want my meds. And I looking back now, I realize that was at the height of the opioid epidemic and they were so worried about people getting addicted. And, you know, the sacklers always said, you can't get addicted if you're a patient, you know, who needs pain medication, only if you're an addict can you get addicted. You can't get addicted otherwise, which is bullshit. But my doctors at that time said, We don't want you to do this. It's not a good idea. So there was the pain involved. And then I developed lymphedema after that and my arms were very swollen. I could only wear men's shirts for a long time. And through my doctor here I met Bill, who was the CEO of the Lymphatic Education and Research Network. He asked me to come aboard as a national spokesperson and I said, Bill, I don't I've never done this before. I don't know if I can do a good job, what's involved? But he told me a couple of really disturbing facts that nearly 10 million people in this country suffer from some kind of lymphedema and about 50,000 of those are congenital. So it strikes kids. When we were lobbying in Congress, I met a man who lost three kids to pulmonary lymphedema doctors in medical school in four years of medical school, spend 15 minutes on learning about the lymphatic system.
Angela [00:45:26] And see Kathy. I did not know what lymphedema was. And when you started talking about it is when I learned about it. And Jenna had shared with me as well. So I think this is so important to talk about.
Jenna [00:45:38] Something like 20% of breast cancer patients develop lymphedema. And it's because when you get your breast cancer surgery, something that is just standard is they remove some of your lymph nodes to test them for cancer to see if the cancer has spread that from the breast, those lymph nodes underneath your arm, that's first stop shopping for the cancer. So they test those lymph nodes, but they remove them. And when you mess with the lymphatic system like that, when you do that surgery, you increase your risk of developing lymphedema. And and it was something that luckily my doctor did explained to me before my surgery. They educated me on the warning signs about my arm swelling or my legs or ankles swelling. And my cancer was on my left side and I had my lymph nodes removed on my left side. And they have told me that whenever I get a blood pressure cuff, it needs to be on my right. Side. And if I'm going to get an I.V., it needs to be placed on my right side, because that is just how incredibly vulnerable your lymphatic system is to disturbance.
Kathy [00:46:54] Well, I'm thrilled to hear you say all of that, because that means that the doctors have learned about it and are making patients aware. When I had breast cancer and I had my breast cancer done at a topnotch place here, I don't want to say the name. But the doctors didn't talk to me about that. I kept talking to them about it because I had been dating a guy at the time who had it in his left arm. And it's progressive and it's incurable. And he had gone through experimental treatment to survive cancer and did not want to go to another doctor until, you know, ever in his life. And as a result, his arm became like wood.
Angela [00:47:38] My gosh.
Kathy [00:47:38] And that was my fear. But I look down at my arm and remember this horrible relationship I've been through with this guy. Kind of like getting a tattoo, you know? And also that, you know, I was afraid that that was what lymphedema was. And I was full of rage because I had told the doctors, I'm worried about this. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about this. And they took so many lymph nodes. But I'm thrilled that they told you all of that because back then, my doctor had to go and look it up on the Internet.
Jenna [00:48:14] Wow.
Kathy [00:48:15] And he he found this woman wonderful doctor Emily Eicher, who was able to work with me and get my arms down over a period of time. And now that I've lost a lot of weight, that really helped. But trying to educate people over the last ten years, it's been a real journey. We used to get emails from people. I remember one guy, I'll never forget him, John Dale, who wrote us an email, and at the end of the email, all capital letters. Help me. Help me. Help me. Help me. Help me. Because the people are in so much pain. They don't know who to go to. The CDC sent us people and it's like, wait, wait, what are you talking about? Why aren't you guys helping? And finally, we got them on board. We went and lobbied. I'm really proud of all the work that we've done. We've learned our CEO has gone all around the world. We have now the first National Commission on Lymphatic Disease at the NIH. They've had their first meeting a couple of months ago, and we worked really hard to have that happen. Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut, the congresswoman there, was instrumental in getting us the attention that we needed to get this commission going. We got a grant from the CDC for publicity to really create our outreach for people. We're not working on the DOD because it's not just underneath our arms. If these veterans come back and their traumatic injuries have damaged their lymph system, they're at risk. We have a man who wanted to be in the Coast Guard and he came back from the military and he was just a mess. And he had to give up that dream. That's been the most moving and sad parts of this is realizing that people had to give up their dreams because of and there's a kind of lymphedema that happens when you're like late teens, early 20s, when you're just beginning your life and out of nowhere. They don't know what it is. It's some predisposition that occurs at that time. I learned so much talking to the doctors and they're doing now microsurgery. Dr. Ming Chang in Taiwan is the father of lymphatic surgery, but that is still in the experimental stages. It's very expensive. I think they've just done the second surgery up for that. But it's it's still a tremendous problem. And I appreciate so much for letting me talk about it on your show, because education is key. And I always tell the people that there are at our lobbies sessions in Washington, D.C., your pain is your power, your story is your power. And the fact that you can share your story with me and you can tell people how far we've come. Yeah, it's amazing that you have perky breasts. You know?
Jenna [00:51:18] I do like how my shirts fit me better now I'll say that. And my hair, Kathy, after chemotherapy, so before chemotherapy, my hair was almost all gray. And after chemotherapy, my hair is growing in not gray.
Kathy [00:51:38] My God.
Jenna [00:51:39] So I heard that people said, if you have straight hair, it might come back curly if you have curly hair, like it'll come back a different texture. It might come back a different color. I've got perkier breasts and I'm not gray! How about that?
Kathy [00:51:58] That's so great. I'm jelly. I'm totally jelly. No, I lost everything. I lost every hair. Everywhere. Some of it I'm glad I lost, but it took me a while to get it back. Yeah, it was hard.
Jenna [00:52:14] When I heard that I was going to have to have chemo, my first thoughts were, I don't want to throw up and I don't want to lose my hair. That's what I associated chemotherapy with. And I didn't throw up, but I did lose my hair. And I it didn't occur to me till it was happening that it is all your hair, It's your eyebrows and your eyelashes and all of it everywhere. And it's weird. My eyebrows came back real quickly, though. I was happy for that because I was not great at drawing them in. But. But it's really weird to not have eyelashes.
Kathy [00:52:53] Yeah. Yeah. I don't think my eyelashes really came back. Or maybe it just being older. Yeah, I had a friend of mine, actually, Judy Corey, who did my hair for Misery. She came and that was back in 2003. She. She came over and shaved my head for me. And then after I had a bald head, I mean, I did use all these I had things made like packs and all this bulls, wigs and everything. And finally, I just thought I saw Melissa Etheridge, you know, just wailing on her guitar, on some kind of a show with the bald head. And I thought, okay, you know, time to just stop all this hiding and and just be who you are. But I'm thrilled that there are all of these new. What was the H one that you said Her--
Jenna [00:53:39] Yeah. Herceptin. Yeah, it's a targeted immunotherapy. I mean, really, it's only been out for about 25 years and it has just drastically changed the prognosis for women with Her2 positive breast cancers.
Kathy [00:53:56] Wow.
Jenna [00:53:56] It's really amazing.
Kathy [00:53:58] Wow. Bless you. You didn't have to go through that and you're not having any problems with your arm.
Jenna [00:54:04] I am not. No. And I'm very I'm really grateful for that. And and after my surgery, my doctor also prescribed some physical therapy. So I was able to get that side moving. You know, it's very tender, though, I have to say, of all my scars, of all of the ways that I've been poked and prodded in this process of getting a port and all the things, that scar underneath my arm from where they remove the lymph nodes is the most tender. It's still tight. When I try to raise my arm above my head, it is really, truly such a sensitive area.
Kathy [00:54:47] You should try something. I found this cream for other things, for muscular stuff that maybe it would help. It's called Penetrex, and I don't know how I found it. Yes, Write it down, Penetrex. You can get a roll on and it takes the pain away. And it might work with your tenderness. Yeah, it's going to be tender, I think. I mean, it's--This is new. You've only had it for a year. Gone through it.
Jenna [00:55:12] Yeah. January is the anniversary of my surgery.
Kathy [00:55:17] Look at all you done in a year.
Angela [00:55:19] I know.
Jenna [00:55:21] Well, you know, Kathy, I remember you worked right after your chemotherapy. You went back to work pretty quickly. And I read something that you said, which was that it was a little bit of an opportunity to be not a cancer patient. You got to play a character. And I have kept working through my treatment, and I needed that for my mental health. I needed a place that I went throughout the week and I just laughed with my best friend. And we talked about these great memories of our time on this show together because really, truly, it is so many appointments. It is so much of my life and my time is spent with doctors and being a patient that I needed a place where I wasn't that.
Kathy [00:56:07] Yeah, that's true. Lynn Redgrave, God rest her. She was going through fifth stage breast cancer and on a downward slope. I wasn't done with chemotherapy. I just was about to start it and I was having gastro problems. And she said, You got to do this. Going to be somebody else, you know, as you're saying, for the day. And she was right. You know, it gave me although I was pretty cranky for a while because I just wasn't I wasn't healed yet. I was nervous. It was a little too soon. But it was also I couldn't turn down the payday. I really needed the payday because I really dropped out. I was scared. I was one of those people. And this was a bit with the ovarian. I was one of those people who stayed up at night and looked at the internet to see if I could divine anything. But knock wood, it's been 20 years and I don't think I'm going to be having more problems with that. And I regret now that I didn't get reconstructive surgery. I do. But I think at my age, it's just not worth it. I mean, I'm going to be 80 in 4 years. So what? You know.
Jenna [00:57:17] Well, Kathy, I was tested for the BRCA gene as part of my diagnosis. And I said to my husband, I'm 50. And I said to my husband, if it comes back positive, then the recommended surgery was double mastectomy. And if it came back negative, then the recommended surgery was lumpectomy. And I said, if it comes back positive and I have to get a double mastectomy, I don't want reconstruction. I don't want multiple surgeries. I don't want to worry about implants. I don't want it. I really don't. I think they say I just want to go flat. And I and I read an interview that Tig Notaro made that choice and she didn't regret it. And I said, I think that's who I am. I think that's me. And so I had that conversation because so I don't know. I guess I'm just saying I, I understand the instinct to do that, to not be reconstructed. I think because I was there. I was prepared to make that choice.
Kathy [00:58:27] My niece and I both tested negative for the BRCA and the ovarian and I had them both. And at the time, I met with a gentleman at Sloan-Kettering at their center, and he said, it's just we don't know everything there is to know right now. And so I wish because I thought that the possibility of having reconstruction so they left a little more tissue. So I'm kind of wishing now that I had a completely flat chest because I have to figure out how to wear like a little bralette or something like that to cover the shape that's not attractive. And then for the show, they created this wonderful camisole for me with very just little falsies so I don't have to wear those big prosthetics that that that's really a drag. I just I can't wear those anymore. I just can't do it.
Jenna [00:59:28] Yeah, that feels like how like, how I felt about the wigs. At a certain point, I was like, I need this off my head. I can't have these on my head anymore. They're driving me absolutely crazy.
Kathy [00:59:38] Yeah. Yeah, I wasted too much time and money on those. I really didn't need them. So, God willing, it won't be coming back. For me or for you. And the fact that you said that you used your own breast tissue.
Jenna [00:59:55] They did.
Kathy [00:59:57] So you just got a reduction on one side?
Jenna [01:00:00] Well, what they did was they took the side with the cancer. They removed the cancer, and then they reduced my breast size. So they, like, there was enough boob there that they took part of it and filled in the hole. And then after they did that, they made the other side match. So the other side got reduced as well.
Kathy [01:00:19] So you just have you, you don't have any--
Jenna [01:00:21] I just have me.
Kathy [01:00:23] Say that's another reason why I don't want to do reconstruction because I would be dealing with false things in my body and worried about are they going to leak?
Jenna [01:00:34] I didn't want that either. I did not want that anxiety. I thought, I'm not a good candidate for that.
Kathy [01:00:40] Wow. Well, you you got an amazing situation.
Jenna [01:00:43] I ended up getting very lucky. When you get a a breast cancer diagnosis and probably any cancer diagnosis, there's all these steps along the way where things can get worse or things can get better. And there's like lifelong side effects to the treatments. So kind of like we know we had to have surgery, but that surgery disrupts the lymphatic system. Well, now you have a risk of lymphedema. And if you get radiation, you have to get the radiation. But now you have a risk of, you know, scarring your lung tissue. So it's like. It's such a crazy journey because. It's like you're doing these things because you need to fight the cancer, but they might cause different problems that now you have to live with forever.
Kathy [01:01:35] Well, how are you doing emotionally?
Jenna [01:01:38] You're so kind to ask. How am I doing emotionally? I'm okay most of the time, but at least once a week, I get sad and mad. I get mad because every day I feel like I have to swim upstream a little bit. I have to swim against the current just to have a normal day. And it's exhausting. And sometimes it's just hard to find the fight. But I am really so very well supported by my husband and by friends. By Angela. But I did. I did notice that there was a real swell of support during chemotherapy, I think, because people know how hard that is to get through. And when the chemo was over, some of the support went away. Sometimes I feel like I'm bothering people or I feel like they're going to get frustrated with me. They're going to be like, geez, is this ever going to end with her? And that's how I feel. I feel like, geez, is this ever going to end with me? But I do still need support, and I think that's something I would want people to know if they have a friend or family member going through this is that the struggle doesn't end when the treatments, quote unquote, end, you know?
Kathy [01:03:20] I think that's a great point. And I think that's exactly what I experienced when I had ovarian cancer. You know, I had a friend at the time who was so supportive. And I remember at one point, we were getting ready to go somewhere and I was sitting on the step doing my, lacing, my shoes and my cap fell off and he sort of laughed. And I just said, This is so hard for me. And then I found out that as I progressed through the chemotherapy, this was for ovarian, that people have exactly that reaction. Only they left sooner during my because it went on for nine months. My doctor wanted me to do it for six months, but he said, You're doing well, so let's do it, you know, another three months. And people just sort of dropped away because they didn't. They said, well, you know, isn't this over? Isn't it going to be done? Is it you know, they didn't have the the patience, really. And so I went to my chemotherapy sessions by myself. Well, I got to the point of where I would just go by myself. It was easier to go and hope that I got the really good looking Russian nurse who would come in. I don't know what his name was. I can't remember, Vasili, or something like that, or Ivan or I was like oh my god, here's today, great. But it would take about four hours, you know, to to be in there. And they gave me a private room and all of that. So being a VIP helped and thank God with the breast cancer, I didn't have to go through chemotherapy or radiation. And which is one reason why I opted to just make it a double.
Jenna [01:05:02] Yeah.
Kathy [01:05:03] But I was really enraged after. But we talked about that before. And and it wasn't until I sat with Dr. Eicher, you know, and I told her all of the things I was feeling and the rage that I was feeling. And she's this charming little woman, Czechoslovakian. And and she just said something like, okay, well, let's have a glass of champagne and then we will begin the rest of your life. So somehow she just slowly pulled me out of my rage. And then working with with Learn, I was able to use it. You know, to.
Angela [01:05:43] To give it purpose.
Kathy [01:05:45] To give it purpose, to give back, to do something real in the real world, which is like what you guys are doing. Angela, have you ever had to deal with anything like this?
Angela [01:05:55] Yes. My grandmother and my aunt and my mom were all breast cancer survivors. My grandmother passed away, but not from cancer. And my my aunt, my mom's sister had a really rough go, but she's doing much better now. So I go and, you know, get my mammograms and try to stay on top of it. But, you know, when Jenna got her diagnosis, all I wanted to do was be a source of support. And I wanted to just be strong for her. And, you know, we never really talked it out about just the the scary side of it and those emotions until we sat down on our podcast to talk about it for the first time. And I think I cried for 20 minutes and we couldn't even use it because it was the first time I said out loud, she's cancer free. You know, it's like I and we finally talked about it. I completely fell apart. I held it together for a year, but then I just fell apart because just watching someone you care about go through it and not knowing what the hell you can do other than to just say, I'm thinking of you and I love you and I'm praying for you. And. And that's about it, you know, and just try to keep being there for her and being steadfast and hoping I was enough to help her when she needed it. But it is so important that you guys are sharing about it. It's so important. We've had so many people reach out to us when Jenna shared and Kathy, I know you're having this experience too, that the burden of feeling alone in it, the burden of feeling like you can't talk about it, that itself is just too much to bear. I think on top of everything else, and I'm so happy to be part of this conversation with you all and for people listening to hear it.
Kathy [01:07:49] Thank you. To many of us and younger and younger and younger are getting breast cancer or developing breast cancer. And I'm so heartened by what I've learned from you today, Jenna, because to realize that the strides that they've made just in the last 20 years is phenomenal. And I wish I'd had that kind of treatment. But maybe it's specific to your what did you call it.
Jenna [01:08:15] A triple positive breast cancer.
Kathy [01:08:18] I had triple estrogen.
Jenna [01:08:20] You had estrogen? The estrogen positive. So did you have to take Tamoxifen? Did you have to take an estrogen blocker?
Kathy [01:08:27] I couldn't tolerate the Tamoxifen, so they put me on something else. I can't recall the name of it. And I took it for a number of years.
Jenna [01:08:34] Yeah. So far, so good for me on the Tamoxifen. But yes, I think something like 50% of women don't finish it because it sucks so much.
Kathy [01:08:44] But wait a minute. What is yours specifically? Mine was triple estrogen. Yours was something else.
Jenna [01:08:50] Estrogen positive, progesterone positive and Her2 positive.
Kathy [01:08:57] What is Her2?
Jenna [01:08:58] Her2 is a protein that's in our body, and it's just it's always there. But when your cancer is Her2 positive, it means that your cancer likes to feed on that protein. And so the Herceptin is an immunotherapy that like kills the, or not kills but it dampens the the hurt to protein in your body.
Kathy [01:09:25] I see. I see. I'm trying to remember the name of the chemo that I was on for ovarian.
Jenna [01:09:34] Did you get it every three weeks?
Kathy [01:09:36] Yeah.
Jenna [01:09:37] Yeah, I got one that was once a week.
Kathy [01:09:40] My God.
Jenna [01:09:41] The every three weeks is actually a harder chemo.
Kathy [01:09:45] Do you recall the name of it?
Jenna [01:09:47] Mine was called Taxol. Was yours red colored?
Kathy [01:09:52] No, I think Taxol. You know, I think that's the same one I had but only every three weeks.
Jenna [01:09:57] Yeah, they can do it in in other doses. Yeah they can do it, yeah.
Kathy [01:10:02] Did you know that it comes from the Yew tree and the Druids felt that the Yew tree represented rebirth?
Jenna [01:10:11] No, but can I tell you something? So every time they brought, I'm going to get emotional, every time they brought the chemotherapy in to the room and every time they bring the Herceptin in, my husband would go up to it and he would thank it for being there. He would say, Thank you, we welcome you into Jenna's body to do your work. You are welcome here. We are so excited to have you here. We are happy you exist and we welcome you into her body to to rid her of this cancer.
Kathy [01:10:49] My gosh. My gosh.
Jenna [01:10:53] My husband said, he said if when it gets in the room, we tense up and we hate it and we're negative. He said that it's just he was like, I want us to have a different attitude when it comes in the room. I want us to have an attitude of gratitude. I want us to thank it for being here. And he said, I think that that will that openness in your body to accept this medicine will help it do its work. That's what he said. Isn't that beautiful?
Kathy [01:11:25] That's phenomenal. And I think it's right.
Jenna [01:11:27] Yeah. Yeah. And I can't believe what you said about that tree.
Kathy [01:11:32] Yes. My niece dug that up.
Jenna [01:11:34] Wow.
Kathy [01:11:35] You know, I was an old hippie at one point in my life. So, yeah, I. I just found that going it alone after the first, maybe 3 or 4 treatments was the way for me. But it. Was there something, have we used up all our time?
Angela [01:11:52] Well, one little thing, I was going to say, just to wrap it up, first of all, we are going to share everything about the lymphatic education and research network on our social media. I will swipe up on link so people can learn more. And then we thought we would end this interview with a tradition from the office call sheets on the back of our call sheets. They would do a few questions and a get to know the cast and crew, and they would feature a new person each week. So Jenna and I picked our three favorite questions that were the regular questions. And we'd like to ask them to you.
Kathy [01:12:28] Okay.
Angela [01:12:29] Okay. We got the call sheet questions. The first one is what is a place that you have been to that you absolutely loved?
Kathy [01:12:40] I was at a place called the Spring Cottage. It was in England. It was on the Thames. It belonged to Lady Astor. It's now a part of the National Preserve there. And we were doing a movie, and I got to stay down at the spring cottage. And it was right on the river. And it had its own boat. It's at a butler, if you can believe that. And it's where Lady Sutherland lived. And Queen Victoria would come and have tea there. And but it was also where the Profumo affair, all that happened. I think I'm saying that correctly back in the 60s or the 70s. But it was just this magical place. And I'm Irish and I shouldn't be liking the English, but Cliveden, CLIVEDEN, and you can look at pictures of it. It's just so beautiful. Lived in house, tableau Yeah. Built for Queen Victoria by the Sutherland's. And it's located on the River Thames in the grounds of Cliveden house. It's a three bedroom riverside property with a private garden and covered porch.
Jenna [01:13:56] Well, that sounds lovely.
Angela [01:13:57] I mean, done. Okay.
Jenna [01:13:59] But, Kathy, you've also, like, traveled the country in an RV, right?
Kathy [01:14:04] Yes, I did. I recently sold it, but I loved it.
Angela [01:14:08] This is one of my favorite memories of being in hair and makeup with you is that I was wanting to go on a road trip. And you were telling me about your RV trips in hair and makeup. And that was a dream of my dad's. And I just loved it. I hung on your every word. I was like, I want to load up and go see America.
Kathy [01:14:25] It's great. When I bought it, my niece said at the time, It's the boomer thing to do. But we found these wonderful places to stay and a lot of them, I guess it is a boomer thing to do. You can find these beautiful places with your pads that you have, all of your electricity. You have like a, you know, a barbecue place, but then they'll have a main building where you can do laundry. And I mean, some of them are just out of this world. I highly recommend them, especially if you have a loved one. It's really a couple's thing to do.
Angela [01:15:00] Yeah.
Kathy [01:15:01] Or a family thing to do.
Jenna [01:15:03] I'm curious, what was your favorite spot that you visited in your RV? Did you go to a lot of national parks and things?
Kathy [01:15:12] Actually, my favorite place, I went to my hometown, Memphis. And through friends, I found a very simple spot on the western side of the Mississippi. And we were right there with the Mississippi River. Literally, there was nothing in between us. And his family had left it to him, this piece of property, and he turned it into an RV park. I don't know what it is now. That was one of my favorite places.
Angela [01:15:43] Two of your favorite places are on a river, Kathy.
Kathy [01:15:46] Yeah, I like rivers.
Angela [01:15:51] Our next question is, do you play a musical instrument?
Kathy [01:15:56] I used to play the guitar. And I don't anymore. But I. I have a couple of ones that I really, really enjoy. And the first job I ever got was a movie called Taking Off. And I had I played a song that I wrote when I was 16, and it was in the movie. It was Milos Forman's first film, American Film. Wow. But that's been many, many years ago. I loved playing. I taught myself how to play. And so it was, I miss it.
Angela [01:16:28] Wow. Okay. That is so cool. I mean, you wrote a song that's in a movie that's just. That's pretty cool. Last question. What do you like to do on the weekends?
Kathy [01:16:42] It depends. What do I like to do on the weekends? Sometimes I like to go to a real movie theater and see a movie. Sometimes I'm learning lines that's depending if I'm working or not. What else do I like to do? I like to color. I like to color coloring books and stuff. And I have Jenny Erman, who wrote our series, just sent me a box of wonderful pencils and coloring books because she loves to do that. And I have an app on my iPad that I love to do. I love to color. I love to listen to books on tape. That's one of the things I'm really starting to enjoy on my hiatus is the I'm now back to listening to books and reading a lot of different kinds of books. I just finished a book called The Conclave last night, which is brilliant. I know there's a film out about it. I want to go and see that. So, yes, I will do. I like to read. I like the color. I guess it's kind of like a I don't know, maybe I'm stuck at 13 years old. I don't know. But those are the kinds of things I like to do and be with my dog, my puppy. And just very low key.
Angela [01:17:53] That sounds lovely.
Jenna [01:17:54] Well, Kathy, you are such an icon of the entertainment business. You're such an icon. And I wondered if we could end the interview by asking you, what is the best piece of advice you received in your career, and what advice might you give an aspiring actor?
Kathy [01:18:14] Well, it all boils down to someone once told me you have to have a head like a bullet and a heart like a baby. And I could expand on that by saying, especially nowadays with social media being so powerful and powerful in negative ways, is that you really have to be you have to get strong, you have to get tough, and at the same time not get cynical or bitter. But you've got to protect yourself. I don't advocate being on social media unless in your case, it's a great thing for your show. You need to do that. But I don't want to read negative things about myself. I just think that the best kind of advice I could give is if you're serious about being an actor, if you want to be an actor like Cillian Murphy or Anthony Hopkins or Cate Blanchett, you have to study. You have to work. You can't just be it's wonderful to be young and to be given an opportunity. And if you've got that spark, you've got it and you can really sail out there, That's great. And then I'd say, protect your heart. Don't let your heart get hurt by strangers who say things about you or your work because they don't know and don't get blindsided by clickbait. As we talked about it earlier. But it's all about the work. It's all about the work. It's all about the work. And as we said earlier, it's about developing. It's about evolving, about evolving, about evolving. And, you know, when we got the news that our show had done so well and our first numbers came out and we were all just thrilled jumping up and down. And I can really be a Debbie Downer sometimes because I said, you know, and in ancient Rome, when the conquering heroes came back in their chariots, there was always a slave standing behind them whispering, Sic transit, Gloria mundi, which means all glory is fleeting, you know? And of course, all of them were like, God, can't you know, enjoy this one moment. And now I'm saying, Yes, we can enjoy that but now let's get back to work. Yeah. You know, because work is what got us here. Work is what's going to keep us here. I mean, it's like you guys were talking about the collaborative aspect of your work, and that was the focus of what you did, and that's what made it so wonderful.
Jenna [01:20:37] Yeah, I love that. I feel like it's sometimes hard to be an artist because you do have to keep that open heart in order to do the work, but that makes it so that you're... I don't know, It's it's so easy to get wounded when you have that open heart. So it's such a balance.
Kathy [01:20:57] It's it is it's a gift to be porous. It works great in your work, but it's not so great in the world outside. It can be difficult. But I remember a producer because I got very hurt one time in London by an awful interviewer, and I literally left the tour and I remember the producer coming to me and saying, I'm going to have to get a lot tougher. You're going to you're going to have to toughen up, you know? And he was right. Anyway, I appreciate being able to chat with you in a very open and safe way. And I think we talked about some wonderful things. And I'm so envious of you and happy for you.
Jenna [01:21:32] Well, thank you.
Kathy [01:21:33] Happy for you, Jenna. That you're. That you come through this with both breasts intact.
Jenna [01:21:41] Kathy It was, it was such an honor to work with you.
Angela [01:21:46] Yes.
Jenna [01:21:46] You know, you did something at our first table read together that I never forgot. You sat down at the table and you had the script and you got out a golden folding fan. The kind that you go like. And you would fan yourself because you were hot, you know? And I thought to myself, one day I am going to earn the right to fan myself with a golden fan and so, Kathy, my goal in life is to win a Tony. I want to do a Broadway show. I want to win a Tony. And when I walk up on that stage to accept my award, I am going to get out a golden fan and I'm going to fan myself in your honor.
Kathy [01:22:34] I'll wait for that. I really will. I'm excited for you to do that. Angela, thank you so much. It was great speaking with you today. I really appreciate it.
Angela [01:22:45] Thank you. You're a light in the world and we just adore you so much.
Kathy [01:22:49] Thank you so much for the opportunity. Bye, guys.
Angela [01:22:53] Bye. Take care.
Kathy [01:22:54] Okay.
Angela [01:23:05] Man, I just loved all of that. I loved just spending time with her. I really felt like we got to spend time with her.
Jenna [01:23:12] Yeah.
Angela [01:23:13] And I just love how happy she is in this new job, in this new chapter of her life. You and I can really relate to that. Yeah. And Matlock, you guys airs on CBS every Thursday at 9 p.m. Eastern, and it's also streaming on Paramount Plus. And it's already been picked up for a second season.
Jenna [01:23:30] Well, you know, Angela, we also said we would share a swipe up in our stories where people can learn more about lymphedema. And I would also like to include a link to the breast cancer risk assessment test. It is a test that you can take online at home to calculate your risk for developing breast cancer. And it's kind of based on your age, breast density, family history. And if you have an increased risk, you can share those results with your doctor and you might qualify for additional diagnostic testing. For example, if you are at a high risk but you're younger than 40, you might qualify for an annual mammogram much sooner. I have said before that my success with treatment is due to my very early detection, so it's really worth taking the test.
Angela [01:24:19] Yeah, so important.
Jenna [01:24:21] Well, everyone, thanks for listening today. We're going to be back with you on Friday with a special holiday bonus episode.
Angela [01:24:29] Yeah, we can't wait. It's really festive. It's really fun. And we just hope you guys have a great week. Know that we're thinking of you.
Jenna [01:24:42] Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.
Angela [01:24:44] Office Ladies is a presentation of Audacy in this produced by Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey.
Jenna [01:24:49] Our executive producer is CassiJerkins. Our audio engineer is Sam Keefer, and our associate producer is Aynsley Babaeko.
Angela [01:24:57] Audacy's executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reis-Dennis.
Jenna [01:25:01] Office ladies with Mixed and Mastered by Chris Basil.
Angela [01:25:04] Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.