TRANSCRIPT
Office Ladies | Episode 269 – How We Met the Office Ladies
Jenna [00:00:04] I'm Jenna Fischer,
Angela [00:00:04] and I'm Angela Kinsey.
Jenna [00:00:06] We were on The Office together,
Angela [00:00:07] and we're best friends.
Jenna [00:00:09] And now we're doing the ultimate Office lover's podcast, just for you.
Angela [00:00:13] Each week, we will dive deep into the world of The Office; with exclusive interviews, behind-the-scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.
Jenna [00:00:21] We're the Office Ladies 6.0.
audio cue [00:00:22] [musical sting]
Jenna [00:00:25] Hello.
Angela [00:00:27] Howdy.
Jenna [00:00:27] How's it going?
Angela [00:00:29] Pretty good. How are you?
Jenna [00:00:30] I mean, I'm good. I've started a new TikTok trend.
Angela [00:00:34] What?
Jenna [00:00:35] A TikTok trend, I started doing a thing that I saw. You want to know what it is?
Angela [00:00:39] Yeah. I'm not on TikTok.
Jenna [00:00:41] Well, me either, but it made its way over to Instagram, which is how I found out about it.
Angela [00:00:45] Is this something you can show me right now here?
Jenna [00:00:48] It's something you do every morning and it's supposed to boost your health and metabolism and stuff.
Angela [00:00:57] Okay.
Jenna [00:00:57] Here's what it is. You jump up and down 50 times first thing in the morning. It takes less than a minute. So it's this new trend.
Angela [00:01:05] I'm not gonna do that.
Jenna [00:01:06] Why?
Angela [00:01:07] I'll have to pee! If I jump up and down,
Jenna [00:01:08] You pee first, lady! You don't have to do it immediately after getting out of bed. You can pee, you can shower and then jump up down 50 time. It's just at some time in your morning, you gotta jump up and down.
Angela [00:01:17] Okay. How high do I have to jump?
Jenna [00:01:21] Not high, just jump. But here's the thing. I'm on like day (maybe) six, and after the first day my calves were so sore. Just one day of 50 jumps. I felt it.
Angela [00:01:35] When's the last time you jumped on a trampoline? Cause I jumped on the trampoline with my kids a while back and I felt like I'd been in a car accident after.
Jenna [00:01:43] [laughing] It's been a long time, but supposedly this helps to get your circulation going and flush your lymphatic system. I don't know, the lady in the Instagram video had great things to say after doing it for one month. I got totally - I was like, "I'll do it." So I'll keep everyone posted.
Angela [00:02:01] You know what I started doin? I think you know this. I saw a video where a lady pats herself down. She starts at her shoulder and she goes pat pat pat all the way down her arm and then she does her legs.
Jenna [00:02:13] That's a lymphatic thing, too.
Angela [00:02:15] Well, I started doing it and it does wake you up.
Jenna [00:02:17] Oh, so you are slapping yourself awake and I'm jumping myself awake.
Angela [00:02:21] There it is.
Jenna [00:02:22] Same world.
Angela [00:02:23] Okay.
Jenna [00:02:24] All right, well, listen, everybody, we've got a really fun episode today, but we are kicking things off with a big announcement. We talked about this a little bit in our Second Drink this week, but in case you didn't hear, "The Paper" is now airing on NBC every Monday at 8:30 PM Eastern, 7:30 PM Central.
Angela [00:02:44] [singing the NBC jingle] BING BONG BING Did I do it? BING DING DONG DONG Remember, the little peacock? Well, it started this week and we're super excited about it.
Jenna [00:02:57] Yes, it's being bundled with "St. Dennis Medical," which, as you know, stars Wendi McLendon-Covey, AKA Concierge Marie. St. Denis Medical was created by Office alum Justin Spitzer. So basically, Monday nights on NBC, you get two great comedies from Office folks.
Angela [00:03:14] I love it. And guys, guess what else? We are here to announce to you all that starting the new year, we're going to break down all of the Paper episodes. So get caught up on Peacock, or NBC, and meet us back here in the new year for all the insider info and tidbits and trivia. We're going be hitting everyone up.
Jenna [00:03:32] Mm-hmm, and we also just put some folders up on the Office Ladies website where you can submit questions for each of the Paper episodes.
Angela [00:03:42] But we're not done with fun stuff. Today, we've got a fun crossover episode for you. Jenna and I are going to be joined by Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas, the hosts of "How We Made Your Mother," the rewatch podcast that is so fantastic.
Jenna [00:03:55] Yes, if you are a loyal listener of Office Ladies, you already know that this show, How We Made Your Mother, is now available on the Office Ladies Network.
Angela [00:04:04] And for those of you not familiar with How We Made Your Mother, it is a great rewatch podcast of the hit show, "How I Met Your Mother" which ran on CBS for nine seasons from 2005 to 2014. The show was a huge hit. It was nominated for something like 28 Emmy awards, including Best Comedy Series. Josh Radnor played the character "Ted Mosby." I love it because he says he is the "I" in How I met your mother. Craig Thomas was the co-creator of the show. It's so cool to hear their behind the scenes stories from their different perspectives.
Jenna [00:04:39] Yeah, I mean, I watched the show when it was on. I loved it. Their podcast is so great. They have that unique perspective of having both an actor and a co-creator. So I feel like it's like if Greg Daniels sat in on every episode of Office Ladies and told us what the writers were thinking when they crafted the storylines. But also Josh and Craig, they're just such thoughtful, positive people. Like, their energy is so uplifting. I just love listening to them.
Angela [00:05:10] Me too. I was telling my Josh, because now my Josh is also listening and loves it. I said, "Aren't they just so easy and pleasant?" They're wonderful to hang out with, you know? Okay. So, everyone, here is what's happening today. Craig and Josh watched an episode of The Office and they're gonna be our guests on Office Ladies.
Jenna [00:05:29] That's right. We watched season five, "Customer Survey." Now me and Ange, we watched the Peacock super fan version. Craig and Josh watched the original broadcast version. You might remember, this is the episode where Pam is away at art school in New York, and she and Jim spend the day listening to one another's day over those little teeny tiny Bluetooths. Meanwhile, Angela and Andy are trying to plan their wedding. This is episode where they decide to get married at Schrute Farms.
Angela [00:05:59] Yeah, this is also the episode where Dwight and Jim both get really horrible feedback on their customer reviews and they figure out that Kelly purposely doctored the reviews as revenge because they didn't go to her "America's Got Talent" party.
Jenna [00:06:12] This is one of my favorite episodes. I'm so excited to hear their take on it.
Angela [00:06:19] I loved re-watching it. And you guys, not only that, tomorrow we're gonna be on How We Made Your Mother, chatting with them about an episode on their show. So be sure to check that out as well.
Jenna [00:06:29] Well, let's take a break and then we'll get into it.
audio cue [00:06:31] [musical sting]
Angela [00:06:43] Hello guys!
Jenna [00:06:44] Hi Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas, welcome to Office Ladies! This is so exciting!
Craig [00:06:53] Guys, thanks for having us. In every sense of that word.
Angela [00:06:57] Yeah, this is the first time we're all in one space together, seeing each other.
Craig [00:07:05] This is it, I'm meeting you.
Jenna [00:07:07] We are so excited, guys. We're so excited to have you on Office Ladies Network. We love your podcast.
Craig [00:07:16] You guys are the best at this. That means so much coming from you. Thank you guys for having us. We're thrilled to be joining forces with you. You guys, you're the best at this.
Angela [00:07:24] Well, our audience is going to love your podcast. You're doing such a great job. Jenna and I have been talking so much about the two different perspectives that you bring to the re-watch. It's so good.
Craig [00:07:35] Thank you guys. Well, we're friends in real life, like you guys are. That part helps.
Josh [00:07:40] It's so funny you think that, Craig. No, that's sweet. But go on.
Craig [00:07:45] Wait a second.
Jenna [00:07:47] Well, we love you and how you break down your episodes and we thought it would be fun to have you on to talk about an episode of The Office. So we asked you guys to watch Customer Survey from season five.
Angela [00:08:00] Yes, we love this episode and we were curious, what was your overall reaction to it?
Josh [00:08:06] Mine was positive.
Jenna [00:08:08] That's good.
Josh [00:08:09] I had a positive reaction.
Angela [00:08:12] Good.
Josh [00:08:13] I loved it. I watched it twice. First, to kind of let it wash over me and the second time I just wanted to jot down things that delighted me, which is something Craig and I do on our own podcast. One thing I was really struck with, is that every character is like... There's no heroically virtuous character on the show. Everyone's got their spiky edges and everyone can be a little ethically compromised.
Angela [00:08:45] Yeah.
Josh [00:08:45] But also there's this, it's not just... Michael's the most overt, kind of "like me, like me like me." But everyone is obsessed, on some level, with their perception. Like, how they're being perceived. Especially in this episode, because it's literally about feedback. Like, "What are people thinking of me?" Even Jim's thing at the end, like, "I wasn't invited." You know what I mean? Like, "I didn't get a mug," right?
Jenna [00:09:06] Yeah.
Josh [00:09:07] There's something very human about it. I mean, it's Mindy's book, "Is Everyone Hanging Out Without Me?" That's very human. One other thing, I had heard this thing that all television is about family at some core level. I think it's because that's how families would gather around and watch a story together. The Office is a family. It's not a vertical family, it's not a genetic family, but it's a horizontal family. Same with How I Met Your Mother, it is a chosen family. So I think both shows are family shows, and you see, especially in this episode, the way the characters in The Office fight, it's very sibling-like.
Angela [00:09:47] Yeah.
Josh [00:09:50] They're at each other's throats in a very familial way. What about you, Craig?
Craig [00:09:54] I just found so much, I loved it. This is a great episode. I hadn't seen this since it aired. I'm struck by how there's so many similarities to How I Met Your Mother. As a writer and a show runner, this has so many of the things I'm looking for. Setups and payoffs. These stealthy little things, these little seeds that you plant, you don't even know it's important to the story and then at the end it kind of gut punches you with how important it is. Those little Bluetooth things. Josh and I talk a lot about how technology has caught up with and surpassed our TV shows in the last 20 years.
Jenna [00:10:26] Mhm.
Craig [00:10:26] Where it's like, "These incredible little ear things are amazing!" People don't have this reaction now, but at the time that was a big deal. That's always hilarious to me, when technology sort of comes around.
Angela [00:10:38] We call it "old tech." It's like, "Oooh! Old tech alert!"
Craig [00:10:39] We have a lot of old tech, put it that way, on How I Met Your Mother. But just the idea that that becomes really heartbreaking at the end. Or, really, this real challenge to Jim and Pam's relationship, all borne out of what seems like this light little comedic runner about the things in their ears and hearing each other's sides of a conversation. The fact that that had this emotional punch at the and was so clever. We also talk about on How i Met Your mother, the whole series is a mystery, right? Who's the mother? How does he meet her? What happens? It's this larger series. We discovered that a lot of the good episodes of HIMYM, in miniature, are mysteries. I really liked the idea that there's something afoot here.
[00:11:17] There's a Sherlock Holmes case. Something's weird about these customer surveys. At first, you think that their egos are bruised and they're making it up, that there's something weird. No, there actually is something weird. There is something nefarious that is happening here. The idea that they start to solve this mystery case and that Mindy's character really did tamper and sabotage it actually is true. I loved that. I love that the through line of the episode is a mystery being solved. I love the episode ends on a big cliffhanger of like, "What does this mean for Jim and Pam?"
[00:11:51] The bonding scene where Michael pretends to scold her for having given the erroneous and false surveys is really sweet. That Michael gets this vulnerable moment to say, "No one ever comes to my parties either."
Josh [00:12:04] "Why do I make so much guacamole?"
Jenna [00:12:07] That's my favorite line in the whole episode.
Craig [00:12:10] It's so heartbreaking. That's the other thing, it's when something's really really funny and yet has this incredible emotional depth and pathos to it and it's really human. I think that's the overlap between these two shows.
Josh [00:12:21] Yeah, you know, another overlap, both have opening credits with songs that are bangers.
Jenna [00:12:28] Ah, yes, you're right.
Craig [00:12:30] I love the Office theme song.
Josh [00:12:32] When it kicks up in the same way as HIMYM, it gets you psyched.
Craig [00:12:38] That's Carter and my band, that's me and Carter. That's our band, the How I Met Your Mother theme song, The Solids.
Jenna [00:12:42] What?
Craig [00:12:42] Yeah, that us, Carter and I.
Jenna [00:12:43] Is that right?
Craig [00:12:43] Carter and I met in college, playing in bands together. We were writing songs together before we were writing TV together. Our band The Solids did the theme song. I'm very honored, Josh, to be mentioned in the same breath as the Office theme song which I think is a total banger. I had not heard it in a minute because I hadn't re-watched it in awhile. One of my notes that I wrote down was, "God, this theme song kicks ass." Like, it just gets you so excited, that theme song.
Angela [00:13:07] It's true, both of them. Every time I hear them, I get happy.
Craig [00:13:12] It makes you happy.
Angela [00:13:12] So true.
Jenna [00:13:13] It does.
Angela [00:13:14] I think one of the things I like about both of the shows is that redemption moment; where there is a character that is struggling with something. There's always that moment where your heart takes a turn. I thought you guys did that so well. One of my favorite moments in this episode is between Michael and Kelly. When he shares how much he struggles. He gets really honest with her in a way that's not performative, for the camera, the way he normally is.
Josh [00:13:43] It's so sweet.
Angela [00:13:44] He is kind of like the "pick me" character, but he was just really honest with her and I used to love that transitional moment for Michael.
Josh [00:13:53] Yeah. It also occurs to me, a question one might ask themselves is, "Why is this film crew still filming these people?"
Angela [00:14:05] Yes, yes.
Josh [00:14:06] But the way I think about it is that a person with a really good filmmaking eye would be like, 'These are fascinating people. There's a fascinating story going on here." It's not about kings and queens and it's not about super wealthy people. It's about people and just... There were moments with Jim and Pam, over the years, that were like Chekhov.
Craig [00:14:29] Yes.
Josh [00:14:29] Like in Jane Austen, when the fingertips grazed together and it's just like magic, or something. A firework kind of thing, and I feel like the modesty of it is actually what gives it its mythic quality, if that makes sense. It's just really about people in Scranton. That's why I think, in some ways, I love documentaries even more than regular films, because watching people behave in an unselfconscious way... Like, if you watch people in the airport or in the grocery store, everyone is a brilliant actor. Everyone is giving a brilliant performance of picking out a melon.
Jenna [00:15:13] It's true.
Craig [00:15:13] Total commitment.
Josh [00:15:13] They're actually doing it and it's fascinating to watch. The woman who ran my drama program was like, "I'm never bored, because there are people around. Like, I can just study human behavior," you know?
Angela [00:15:28] That's my favorite thing at an airport. I take a journal and I will just write down what people are doing.
Jenna [00:15:33] This is true.
Angela [00:15:35] I love it.
Josh [00:15:35] Well, I also think we're fighting the distracting rectangle that is taking us away from that, you know?
Angela [00:15:42] Yeah, for sure.
Craig [00:15:43] By the way, Angela, that looks very suspicious. I just want you to be prepared that you may get arrested at an airport at some point, if you're just taking notes. If you just have a pad out and you're taking notes. Just be careful, that's all I'm saying.
Angela [00:15:54] Everyone that listens to Office Ladies knows that I keep a journal. I have read it on our podcast. So I hope that when I am observing people at the airport and jotting things down, some Office Ladies member will come to my aid. If someone's like, "Write her up, she's up to shenanigans!"
Josh [00:16:13] "She's not on her phone."
Craig [00:16:13] "Why is she not on her phone?"
Jenna [00:16:17] I just read this book called, "Tell Me Everything" that I just absolutely loved and the theme of this book is that every person's life has a story worth telling. It's a collection of small snippets of a whole bunch of different people's lives from this town in Maine and I just couldn't get enough of it because it was like people watching, in book form. It gave me an idea. I'm gonna run it by you guys, I think I can't do it, based on what Craig just told Angela. I had this idea. This is so insane, though. This is all insane. I'm going to sound so crazy. I'd have to do this in a city. You can't do this on a driving situation. But could I secretly follow a person all day?
Angela [00:17:03] No!
Josh [00:17:04] Stop. We're going to stop you right there.
Jenna [00:17:04] Through their life and just observe all of what they do. Like, "What did they buy at the store? Oh, I wonder what they're gonna cook."
Angela [00:17:15] Television and Film's Jenna Fischer, efficiently stalking someone one.
Craig [00:17:20] There's a spinning headline and the plan was all captured on the podcast.
Josh [00:17:23] She confessed before she even did it.
Angela [00:17:23] No, lady!
Jenna [00:17:28] I am, similarly like we're talking about, I'm fascinated by the details of people.
Craig [00:17:33] Well, I mean, that's one of the great things about The Office. Like Josh was saying, you feel like you're sneaking in. Josh, I was so struck. I said many similarities between our two shows that I love, and I could say more. The fact that this ends on a couple of cliffhangers. Angela, the you and Dwight scene at the end, we have to talk about that scene. That was magnificent. We had got to get there at some point.
Angela [00:17:53] Oh, it's so weird.
Craig [00:17:54] But one thing that's very, very different about our two show is that we used music to be very emotionally manipulative to the audience. We're music nerds. Like I said, Carter and I, our connection was musical before it was writing words on a page. Josh is a complete music nerd and would come and pitch us songs that we would put on the show. I was really struck watching The Office for the first time in a few years, by the quietness. The fact that there's no music, the fact the soundtrack is the sounds of an office. It's breathing, it's papers moving, it's keyboards clacking. There's something so hypnotic, wonderfully hypnotic, that really draws you in. It really is voyeuristic. You really are there just spying on people. It just works so profoundly well to make you feel like you're in those characters' shoes and you're not being told how to feel. You're just there.
Josh [00:18:48] I heard about this thing that's taking off in Scandinavia, and it's called "slow TV." Have you guys heard about it? It's basically long uninterrupted scenes, scenes where people are in nature. There's a story being told, but it's scenes in nature that are just allowed to run. I think as things get so fast paced, people are longing to just slow it down; slow me down, slow this story down, give me a moment to breathe. I sometimes feel that after being on my phone too much, just like, "Oh my God, take this thing away from me and let me just... I don't know, tell me a longer story or something."
Craig [00:19:25] Yeah.
Josh [00:19:26] Can I say one thing, just going back to Jenna's criminal plot to follow this person?
Jenna [00:19:30] To follow somebody for a day? Yeah. Please.
Josh [00:19:33] So have you guys ever heard of, I think it's called "The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows." It's this book, that is such a good gift book if you want to get a gift for someone or yourself. But this guy invented new words. He took, like... What's it called when you take part of one word and part of another.
Angela [00:19:49] Was he Michael Scott?
Josh [00:19:52] No. But both our shows, that is another similarity: we invent a lot of new terms. There's a definition in there of a word he calls, I think it's called "Sonder." It's the sudden realization that everyone passing you on the street and everyone in every car on the highway that you're driving on, each of those people has just as robust an interior life as you do, and just as fascinating a story as you. I think there's a tendency to let the ego main character us, right? Everyone else is background, or everyone else is in the way, they're just traffic. But to really key into every single one of those cars, if you really illegally followed them like Jenna's gonna do, you'd find something golden; something heartbreaking, something fascinating, some new weird thing. But yeah, it's almost unbearable when you think about how complicated and complex every individual is.
Jenna [00:20:55] Can I just say something to our Office Ladies audience? Everyone: this definition of Sonder that we have just been given from Josh Radnor, these are the types of nuggets that you're going to get when you listen to How We Made Your Mother.
Craig [00:21:11] He gets very nerdy.
Jenna [00:21:12] I will sit with that thought for days, and this happens to me all the time when I listen to your podcast. You offer some thing that I'm just like, "Oh, I'm going to digest that for so long. I freaking love that." I think all the time, when I'm walking or driving, I'll see someone on the side of the road and I'll think, "That is the only time, in both of our lifetimes, that we'll ever be in the same place at the same time." Me and that person, and I don't know their name, I don't know anything about them. Yet, in this world of billions of people, there was a day when we were in the same place, at the time, and just how magnificent is that?
Craig [00:21:52] You're like, "If this guy doesn't catch me stalking him for the rest of this day, this will be the only moment our eyes make contact."
Angela [00:21:59] That's so true, though.
Jenna [00:22:00] I might do it, you guys. I don't know about this conversation.
Josh [00:22:03] Do you think there's any world where you could just ask for permission before?
Jenna [00:22:07] No, because then it might be performative.
Craig [00:22:11] Yes, that's right. You're right.
Jenna [00:22:13] They might choose healthier foods than they would if they were unobserved.
Josh [00:22:18] I think they did this and it was called "Jury Duty." It was a series on television.
Jenna [00:22:22] Which was written by two of the Office writers.
Josh [00:22:25] Oh, that's right. That's right!
Craig [00:22:26] That's a brilliant show.
Angela [00:22:29] Jenna, you could just have a life pivot where you become a detective.
Jenna [00:22:32] Well, Angela, we want to be mom detectives. Maybe this is part of why.
Josh [00:22:37] You have to be mom detectives.
Craig [00:22:38] That's a great show.
Jenna [00:22:39] Thank you. We think so.
Angela [00:22:41] We're solving crimes no one cares about and we always have snacks.
Jenna [00:22:45] And we almost never solve it.
Craig [00:22:47] Endless snacks.
Jenna [00:22:47] At the end of every episode, our tagline is, "We may never know."
Angela [00:22:52] That's it. There's no pay off, Craig, sorry. There's a lot of setup with no payoff.
Craig [00:22:58] No, no just stretch it out. We did nine years of stretching it out.
audio cue [00:23:00] [musical sting]
Jenna [00:23:10] Well, I want to talk a little bit about how you guys shot the show, because The Office and How I Met Your Mother both started around the same time, and I feel like both shows did a new kind of thing. The Office did the whole documentary style, messy camera work, kind of spy shot thing.
Angela [00:23:28] No audience.
Jenna [00:23:29] Yeah, no audience. Your show was shot in the three camera style, but was not filmed in front of audience but it had a laugh track, but also you did some single camera stuff. How did it all work?
Craig [00:23:44] Yeah, Carter and I - Carter is co-creator of the show with me, we really didn't know what we were doing. That's the biggest thing. We stumbled in really not knowing how to do this. We weren't these grizzled old sitcom hack kind of guys. We had come from late night television. We'd worked on an animated show, a couple of short-lived sitcoms. We really had never written a multi-camera sitcom. So we wrote this pilot that we thought was great because it moved; it was lots of short scenes, it popped around, it played with time. We gave it to our producer and she was like, "This is unproducible in front of an audience full of human beings. We hope you understand that you cannot do this like 'Friends.'"
[00:24:23] We were like, "Can't we just keep the audience for a long time and do a lot of pre-shoots?" And they were like, "It will be a hostage situation. The audience will just be there for three days. They'll be trying to escape. You have to break this down in a different way." Pam Fryman and Suzy Greenberg, our brilliant director and producer who did the entire series, really came up with a way to shoot the show over three days. Kind of to look like a sitcom and kind of to look, at times, like a single camera. We went out onto New York Street, we went on locations, we did lots of fun cinematic storytelling and we really let ourselves think about it as not just a half hour sitcom on CBS, which again, we were.
[00:25:01] When we launched, our lead-in was "King of Queens" and our lead-out was "Two and a Half Men" and we were such a weird black sheep. Our numbers were not nearly as big as the show before us and the show after us. Which means you're the dip, you're the hammock. You're bringing the whole ratings of the night down. But we were always good.
Jenna [00:25:18] Oh, we're familiar with that. We were that as well.
Angela [00:25:21] Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Craig [00:25:22] You know that move? But we were great in 18 to 34, which CBS was looking for. They were not doing great in that younger category. Eventually, over those first few years, we started to become their number one show in 18 to 34. They realized, "Well, not as many people are watching this as watch these other shows. But more young people are watching this than watch those other shows." And that was our survival.
Jenna [00:25:47] Well, I love how its shot, even now. I think that's one of the reasons, if I were to guess, why it "holds up so well." You were a little ahead of your time, in that way.
Josh [00:26:01] Brian Eno, the ambient music pioneer, has this thing about how new forms are created when the old form can't contain what the bigger expression is. So for instance, distortion in a guitar was because the amps got blown out. Then it became the sound that everyone was actually chasing. So now, you're trying to mimic the sound of blowing out an amp and that becomes a whole new genre. But it was actually a kind of mistake, or something that couldn't contain it. So it's almost like Carter and Craig's naivete actually created a new form. Because they didn't know.
Craig [00:26:40] We didn't what we were doing. We didn't know we couldn't do it.
Angela [00:26:43] Yeah. And I feel like I saw it in other things, too, after watching your show. Especially when you would have a character say something and then it would cut, to a different time, to the other person reacting. You would sort of set up: Ted would say something and then would cut to Robin's reaction to Lily, or things like that, and it zipped along so fun. I feel I've seen that in movies, but I feel the first time I saw it, really, was watching your show.
Craig [00:27:10] Most multi-cameras don't move that way. I love that The Office moves that way, I feel like we should say, I'm a huge fan of The Office. I watched every single episode of The Office. I watched it door to door, I'm such a huge fan. I wanted to ask all of you this question, you too Josh, because I don't know the answer for you. While you were on TV, while you're on The Office, you're shooting The Office and you come home, do you watch other sitcoms? I'm honored Jenna... You were watching How I Met Your Mother, I guess, which I never really knew that you were at that time until now. I would come home from working on HIMYM all day, and the only comedy I would watch is The Office.
[00:27:45] I love The Office and my wife and I watch every episode. I could not watch any other comedies because my brain would start to compare to them. "Ah, they're a bigger hit than us," "or we're better than that. I think we do this thing better than that one, but this thing we don't do as well." So I was not able to just enjoy watching comedies. I would watch dark, hour dramas and weird movies. I could not watch another comedy except The Office. I watched it in real time at the moment. But what is that for you guys? Were you guys able to enjoy sitcoms while you were in one?
Jenna [00:28:17] Yeah, I was.
Craig [00:28:19] You were. That's good.
Jenna [00:28:20] Oh, yeah. I watched "Community," "Will and Grace," "30 Rock." Loved 30 Rock. "Arrested Development." Yeah. I love comedy, so I was happy to come home and watch more people doing great comedy.
Angela [00:28:36] Yeah.
Craig [00:28:37] That's great. I don't know what's wrong with me, that I couldn't do it.
Jenna [00:28:40] You're a creator, you're looking at It from a creator's point of view.
Angela [00:28:46] I look back now and I'm like, "What was I doing?" I was still doing improv theater in the evenings. I would have a show.
Craig [00:28:52] Oh my god.
Angela [00:28:53] I mean it was like, "What am I doing?" I remember those early seasons. I'd be so tired because we'd get done and then I'd be like, "Ah, I got a nine o'clock show."
Josh [00:29:01] I better go do more comedy now.
Craig [00:29:02] You were doing The Office to support your improv habit.
Angela [00:29:07] Yeah, and then I would watch shows here and there too, but I wasn't afraid to watch them though. I was enjoying it, for sure. I felt like I was part of this creative community. I'd watch an episode of Community, the show, and then we would have to go and be backstage with them at some NBC upfront thing. I'd be like, "Look at us! It's like back in theater days when you're backstage with the different shows" and it felt smaller to me, in the beginning. Maybe because there wasn't streaming maybe because we were on this tiny lot. We weren't even on a major studio lot, you know?
Jenna [00:29:44] Josh, I have a random tangent quickly. How did we meet? Did we meet at one of those events? Here's my memory: my memory is that one day I was invited to do a reading of your screenplay at your place. I went, and I did it, and it was so good. My memory is, that that is where I met you. I don't know if an agent set that up or something. But it was the most wonderful evening; reading with other actors your great screenplay. And you were so nice. I feel like you played guitar for us.
Josh [00:30:24] No, I didn't play guitar back then. That's an embellished memory, I think.
Jenna [00:30:27] That's an inserted memory, but was music playing? You had a beautiful place. I remember that, I was like, "This is so stylish." Is that where we met?
Josh [00:30:40] My memory is, I do remember you doing that reading, but I think I had met you at an event. And because I had meet you at the event, I think, I felt comfortable (well probably not super comfortable, but comfortable enough) to either track you down or, I can't remember how I got a hold of you.
Jenna [00:30:58] Same.
Josh [00:30:59] But you did end up in my living room reading my screenplay.
Jenna [00:31:04] Which you then went on to make. And it's great.
Josh [00:31:10] For years, I think we would just see each other at the night before party, that kind of thing, like the Emmys. We were just on the circuit at the same time, back when those things were interesting to go to.
Jenna [00:31:22] Circuit buddies, so to speak.
Josh [00:31:26] I knew Mindy a little bit before from New York, like, theater days. I knew Rainn because I went to NYU, to the grad acting program, and when I was there, he was directing. Did you guys ever see "The New Bozena," that clown show he directed?
Jenna [00:31:39] No, but I wish I had.
Josh [00:31:41] It was genius, so incredible, and he directed that. So he was always at NYU when I was there, so I knew him. But I always felt connected to your guys' show because, one: we were on the air at the same time and going through some of the strange, life-altering weird vertigo that anyone goes through. But also, I felt like you guys had theater roots. There were a lot of theater actors in your show, you know? Even when I watching Customer Survey, I was like, "This is such an old-timey... Like, the fake call between Michael and Dwight."
Jenna [00:32:16] The buttlicker scene?
Josh [00:32:17] The buttlicker scene
Angela [00:32:18] Oh, William. William Buttlicker.
Jenna [00:32:20] It's so good.
Craig [00:32:21] Such a good scene.
Josh [00:32:22] That might as well be Shakespearean Clowns or Commedia del Arte. It's such a classic and then they start taking it very seriously, the stakes get really high and there's literally zero stakes. So Three Stooges, so Shakespeare Clown and we do that, some of the Barney/Ted stuff could get like that in our show. I always love that feeling, that you're connected to actors from the 16th century or something. Like, this is an ancient art, you know? I always like that feeling.
Jenna [00:32:57] Yes!
Josh [00:32:58] That's how we met.
Angela [00:33:02] It's so funny to me though, that you mentioned that Barney and Ted could be sort of like Jim and Dwight in that scene. I don't know if you've seen this online but there are there's a whole article that says "The Office Characters and their HIMYM Counterparts."
Craig [00:33:17] Oh my god, that's amazing.
Angela [00:33:21] They do say Barney is Dwight and that that Ted is Jim.
Josh [00:33:25] You know, it was so funny. When I was watching the episode, the looks, Jenna, that you and John get to give to the camera were looks that Ted would have given to the cameras, were the camera there. You know what I'm saying?
Jenna [00:33:38] Yes, if Ted was allowed, yes.
Josh [00:33:40] If Ted was allow that convention, he would constantly be looking at the camera like Jim and Pam, you know? Although we have this theory, we're working on a theory that Barney was the only character who knew he was in a sitcom. Because the way Neil walks into a room, sometimes it's like he's expecting entrance applause.
Jenna [00:33:59] [laughing] This is true.
Craig [00:34:00] Well, Barney and Dwight are so similar because they are so deeply living in their own delusional narrative. They have created and curated their own world that they're just utterly inhabiting and they intersect with other people, but they're the main character in this whole other world that is not the real world. That's why they're such fun characters to write and why the Neil and Rainn were so amazing, because they just committed so a billion percent to those characters' realities. They're just in a different movie than everybody else, in a great way.
Josh [00:34:32] And they have their own code of ethics and rules that they honor. Like, they live by them.
Angela [00:34:38] This is what the Internet says about them. Are you ready? It says this: both characters are defined by their over the top personalities, rigid adherence to their own elaborate rule books and pursuit of power and success, though with vastly different moral codes.
Craig [00:34:57] It's eerie how many, I think there's so many similarities between these two shows. Because we had a couple on the show that was a really lovely, cute couple that was still funny when they were together as a couple. They didn't need to be fighting all the time. They were funny as a couple. You enjoyed watching them. They didn't need a problem every week. They didn't need an argument every week. In fact, fans would get upset when there would be trouble between these characters. I know with Jim and Pam, it was like People did not want to see too much go wrong between Jim and Pam. Marshall and Lily on our show, Jason and Allison, they were a beloved couple.
[00:35:31] I really do feel like we all went to TV college at the same time, and I felt a very deep connection to your show because it really was almost the only sitcom I could watch. I don't know why, again, what's wrong with me. I should talk to my therapist about this later. I felt such a connection to Jim and Pam because Marshall and Lilly on the show are based on my wife and I. We went to college, we met. I was 18, she was like 16 and a half because she had skipped a year in high school.
Josh [00:35:59] That "and a half" is really important.
Craig [00:36:00] I know.
Angela [00:36:01] Yeah, it is.
Craig [00:36:02] We were babies and we were the old married couple by our mid-20s. We were like grandparents compared to all these single people out there. So Marshall and Lily are so close to my heart. I think part of the reason I could watch The Office and just love it, was I loved Jim and Pam so much. I loved their connection so much and it's really hard to write a happy couple that gets along and make it funny. I think you guys really, really did that. Then there's this whole thing where Dwight is kind of Barney. There's a lot of Jim and Ted overlaps.
[00:36:32] It struck me, watching this episode of The Office, how many similarities there are. In tone, too, where things start off as little jokes, and then by the end of the episode there's this stealthy switcheroo, where there's a great dramatic twist that comes out of some little seed that's been planted. The little Bluetooth earpieces are a fun little bit and a fun running gimmick, and at the end, they create this huge dramatic moment.
Jenna [00:36:56] That is so true, I love that.
Angela [00:36:59] So I have a question, Josh. If you were in the scene and you had an idea for a line, were you able to just say to the writer on set, or Craig, or someone, "Hey, can I try this alt?" Or "What if I spin it this way?" Did you have that sort of collaboration?
Josh [00:37:14] Yes, for sure. I think we talked about this, Craig, but one of only ones that I'm sure made it on the air was when I had to drop off a letter that I then regretted putting in the mailbox, and I climbed into the mailbox and then got stuck in the mail box.
Jenna [00:37:30] I remember this episode, yeah.
Josh [00:37:33] I asked either Craig or Carter, whoever was on set, because "nailed it" was a catchphrase, so I said can I just drop it in the mail and say "mailed it" instead of "nailed it?" I think that ended up in the episode.
Craig [00:37:45] Yeah, that was in.
Josh [00:37:47] But most of the time, I knew how tightly scripted the things were. It was like a Jenga, you know? The moment you fattened up something, it would be different. It was so dependent upon the rhythm and the quickness of the thing that it never felt like, "We have all the time in the world!" You know? Because the shooting of it was always, the schedule was always very tight (as it always is) but we didn't have those kind of breaths that you guys had, it was a different paced show.
Craig [00:38:21] Yeah, and you wanted to leave room for those emotional moments at the end, like at the end of this episode. It has some moments where clearly room was left. Like, Angela, I love the scene with you and Dwight at the end and everything that's going on between the two of you, as that farm is booked as where the wedding is gonna be. There's two great ticking clocks, like little ticking time bombs, that are started at the ended of this episode. Two little: what's gonna happen with Jim and Pam?
[00:38:44] This guy's clearly flirting with her. Or at least there's this enticement, is she going to move to New York? And then there's this other thing. I really didn't see it coming, I forgot this happened: the Dwight/Angela stuff is this other thing, and a little ticking time bomb has been set. A little fuse has been lit, and it's two of them at the very end of the episode that carry you into the next episode. We tried to do that as often as we could on How I Met Your Mother, just because you had to wait a week, right? People weren't binging these shows, you had people tune in one week from tonight for the exciting next part of the story. That scene with the two of you was amazing. You and Rainn in that scene, just making the deepest eye contact of all time. What was the scene like to you? It's very intense. It was great.
Angela [00:39:28] Very intense, a lot with just a look on our show. So much of our show was reacting, you know? Definitely for the supporting cast, because you would have cast members that were making a lot of the action and the big moments happen, and then the rest of us were reacting to it. For that love triangle with Dwight and Andy, it was so delicious. I loved every single second of it. I was like, 'Give me more, what else? What else can I be a part of here?" That was really fun for a supporting cast when they got to be in the main story. But I loved it. Angela always loved Dwight. That's how I played it.
[00:40:09] Josh, I'm sure you have this process too, but Jenna and I both had our own story for our character that was part of our truth, in whatever moment. So if Angela just isn't always just a bitch. There's many layers to her. So my truth was I always loved him and he put my cat in a freezer, and it took me a long time to get over that. Poor Andy was just sort of in the middle, you know? But I loved those scenes.
Jenna [00:40:40] Can I tell you my two favorite things from that final scene that I just love so much? OK, so the first one is that I love how it's shot. I love how the camera is singles on Angela and Dwight and there's all the eye contact. But then, very slowly, you see Andy lean in to Angela's single. It makes me laugh every time. The other thing is that I love how when Dwight is showing them the book of what can happen when they get married at Schrute Farms, there's a photo of a couple being married while standing in their own graves. That is a callback to some talking head that Dwight had about how Schrutes always get married standing in their own graves.
Craig [00:41:32] Oh my god.
Jenna [00:41:32] So this photograph is just a quick callback to that. Then in the finale episode of The Office, Angela and Dwight get married at Schrute Farms, standing in their own graves.
Craig [00:41:44] That's amazing.
Jenna [00:41:45] I just love the symmetry of that: of the one, two, three. You had to wait nine years for that to pay off, but it does.
Angela [00:41:54] I felt like our writers were so good at that.
Craig [00:41:57] We're in this incredibly small group of people who can say, we got to do that. You got to one thing in one year, another thing to keep it alive three years later, or whatever, and then four years later, however many years later you get to pay it off in this completely different way.
Jenna [00:42:10] You guys did that all the time.
Craig [00:42:11] We got to do that, we really got to that and we did keep track of that. We had a running list of things we had to pay off.
Angela [00:42:17] There's another one in this episode too. It's Kelly, at the very beginning. Michael's telling everyone he's engaged to Holly and she's like, "I got my dress. I hope it's okay, it's white." She wears a white dress to Phyllis' wedding. So it's all the ways that our writers kept track of that.
Jenna [00:42:36] Kelly has been waiting to wear white to somebody's wedding, to steal their thunder.
Josh [00:42:40] Well, it's like that thing they say in the theater, like, "If you see a gun in the first act, it has to go off in the 3rd act.".
Jenna [00:42:45] Chekhov's gun.
Josh [00:42:46] Chekhov's gun, yeah. But this is like, if you something in the third season, it has go off in the ninth season. This is really playing the long game. I love that I didn't have to be the storehouse of wisdom. I love that there were a team of writers that were keeping track of that stuff, because I would have lost track of all that.
Angela [00:43:03] I loved your whole slap runner, you know? I just love that. That's one of those things, Josh, that we can't do in real life, right? We can't have the slap bet and get to use the slaps whenever we want them. Just like all the times that Jim and Dwight slapped each other, just those ridiculous moments. That was so fun.
Craig [00:43:22] Can I tell you something? The slap bet was from real life. Carter and his high school (keyword high school) friends had a long running series of slap bets going and would just slap the crap out of each other, to pay them off. But I think you have to be in high-school for that to work. I think that ends at graduation.
Josh [00:43:37] But before we finish, I just want to say, besides the guacamole line (which is an all-timer), Dwight saying to Kelly, "You juke the stats, cupcake" is also way out there.
Craig [00:43:47] That's an excellent line. He's in his own movie. That's it.
Josh [00:43:50] That's a good line. It's an unbelievably good line.
Craig [00:43:51] That was one I wrote down.
Jenna [00:43:54] Well, guys, thank you for joining us on our podcast and our network.
Craig [00:43:59] Oh, my God.
Angela [00:43:59] Yes!
Jenna [00:44:00] Thank you.
Craig [00:44:01] So great to be with you guys today and in general, thank you for having us on the team.
Angela [00:44:06] Well, we are so thrilled and we know Office Ladies is just gonna love, love your show. You're doing such a fantastic job. We feel honored to have you be part of our network.
Craig [00:44:15] Thank you guys.
Josh [00:44:15] Oh, thanks. Yeah. I don't know if people know how this started, but I just called Jenna to talk about rewatch podcasts and to see if maybe she wanted to hop on our show as a guest and talk about the weirdness of playing one character for a decade and all this stuff. And then she said, "Who's producing you guys?" And I said, "Well, Craig and I are basically doing this with a small team on our own." And she said, "Well, Angela and I are kind of expanding our empire, and we'd love to."
Jenna [00:44:47] Did I say? I did not say "empire" but I like it. I'm going to say it from now on.
Josh [00:44:51] She was twisting a fake mustache,
Angela [00:44:53] as she was following you.
Josh [00:44:58] I turned around, and I was, like, "What are you doing in my apartment?"
Jenna [00:45:00] I was like, "Oh, Josh, I know, I know what you've been up to. You and Craig Thomas, I've been following you both."
Angela [00:45:07] As you're going through his trash.
Josh [00:45:12] It was just one of those things that like, "Oh, yeah that makes all the sense in the world." Then I think you guys listened to an episode or two and then there was a much more formal invitation to join you guys. We didn't have to deliberate it was like, "Oh no, these are exactly who we want to be aligned with" and we just love what you guys have been up to. We're just thrilled to be working alongside you. So thank you so much.
Jenna [00:45:34] One last thing before we go. Craig, we want to give a plug for your book. It's called "That's Not How It Happened." You gave us advanced copies. We're both reading it and loving it. It's a beautiful book. Do you want to tell us about it?
Craig [00:45:47] Yeah, thank you. It's inspired, in part, by my own family and by my journey of raising my son, who has a rare genetic syndrome where he has some learning disabilities and some health challenges. Some of that material, combined with some of my years of working and writing in Hollywood, and both of those elements are in this book. The sort of quickie plot line is, there's a mom and a family, kind of like my own. It's told from four perspectives: a mom, a dad, and two kids.
Angela [00:46:16] I love that.
Craig [00:46:17] Yeah, it's very perspective shifty, which is sort of similar to both of our shows in various ways, right? There's some Office and HIMYM in here. But yeah, the mom has written a memoir about raising her son, who has Down Syndrome in the book, who is now a young adult facing that huge question of what does an adult life look like for a young adult with a disability who's getting outside of school and what's next, and a lot of parents like me call that "the cliff." School ends, and then what happens after the cliff? The novel's about that. The mom has written a memoir about raising her son to this point, and Hollywood comes a knockin' to make a movie out of the memoir.
[00:46:56] In the process of trying to get this movie made of their lives, it raises all kinds of questions about whose story is this? How do we all see our lives? How do four members of a family tell their own story? It's funny, it fits into a lot of what we've been talking about on this episode, right? Everyone's the main character in their story. The book is called That's Not How It Happened because you're constantly switching in and out of these four perspectives into these characters' shoes and out of them to hear what they think the story is and how the next person that's going to speak sees it completely differently. It's a comedy, it's a dramedy, I guess you would call it. It's my favorite thing I've ever written besides How I Met Your Mother. And it means so much to me that you guys are reading it and would support it. So thank you.
Angela [00:47:39] Yes, yes. You guys, get a copy. That's Not How It Happened. I'm going to put a link in our stories.
Jenna [00:47:43] It's out now.
Josh [00:47:45] Can confirm that it's an incredibly fun, wonderful read. You know, when your dear friend hands you and says, "Hey, will you read my novel?" There's always a little nervousness. Like, "Uh-oh, I hope I like it."
Craig [00:48:01] "This is too long to be bad. This is going to be really bad if this is bad."
Josh [00:48:05] I was just delighted by every page of this book. I think it's such a wonderful story. It's so moving, so funny. There's not a dull moment. It's just the page turner, tearjerker. It's fantastic.
Craig [00:48:16] It means the world to me, coming from you guys. Also, I should say, I'm burying the lead here. Josh Radnor and Cobie Smulders read the two parent roles in the audiobook.
Jenna [00:48:25] Is that right?
Angela [00:48:25] That's fantastic!
Craig [00:48:25] The four perspectives are the two parents, and then two kids. So HIMYM fans, please know there's a little HIMYM love in the audio book of this.
Angela [00:48:34] Oh, I love that. Well, we'll definitely share all of this with our audience. We are just so thrilled, Josh and Craig, to have you on the Office Ladies Network. You guys go listen to How We Made Your Mother podcast right now, streaming wherever you get your podcasts.
audio cue [00:48:47] [musical sting]
Jenna [00:48:51] Well, I love that.
Angela [00:48:53] So did I.
Jenna [00:48:54] Also, I loved the super fan of Customer Survey. And lady, I feel like since we didn't get to talk about some of the new stuff that we discovered, I wanna do a full breakdown of that episode and we'll share all of our tidbits.
Angela [00:49:10] Yeah, I'd like that, too. I mean, you and I really dug into it. We were so excited to talk to Josh and Craig. We didn't really get into it as much as I think we thought we were going to.
Jenna [00:49:20] well, let's do it and then we'll put it out next week. So it'll be like a really nice companion for today's episode.
Angela [00:49:26] Oh, I like that. And everyone be sure and check out our interview on How We Made Your Mother. It's dropping as a bonus episode on the How We Make Your Mother feed tomorrow.
Jenna [00:49:35] Yeah, go there now and click "subscribe" so you don't miss it. It's really fun. We watched their pilot episode and then we chat all about it.
Angela [00:49:45] Alright, have a great day. Don't be a buttlicker.
Jenna [00:49:53] We'll see you next week.
audio cue [00:49:53] [outro music]
Jenna [00:49:53] Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.
Angela [00:49:55] Office Ladies is a presentation of Audacy and is produced by Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey.
Jenna [00:50:00] Our executive producer is Cassi Jerkins. Our audio engineer is Sam Kieffer. And our associate producer is Aynsley Bubbico.
Angela [00:50:08] Audacy's executive producer is Leah Reis-Dennis.
Jenna [00:50:11] Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz.
Angela [00:50:14] Our theme song is "Rubber Tree" by Creed Bratton.