TRANSCRIPT
Office Ladies | Episode 294 - Dwight’s Mustard Shirt & Pam’s Cardigans
Jenna [00:00:04] I'm Jenna Fischer,
Angela [00:00:05] and I'm Angela Kinsey.
Jenna [00:00:06] We were on "The Office" together
Angela [00:00:08] and we're best friends.
Jenna [00:00:09] And now we're doing the ultimate Office lover's podcast, just for you.
Angela [00:00:13] Each week, we will dive deeper into the world of The Office with exclusive interviews, behind-the-scenes details, and lots of BFF stories.
Jenna [00:00:21] We're the Office Ladies 6.0.
audio cue [00:00:22] [musical sting]
Jenna [00:00:25] Hello, everyone.
Angela [00:00:26] Hi.
Jenna [00:00:27] Angela, did you get my audio memo about my knees yet?
Angela [00:00:32] No, did you leave it on the drive in?
Jenna [00:00:34] Yeah.
Angela [00:00:35] I was talking to my mom.
Jenna [00:00:36] That's fine.
Angela [00:00:37] I always talk to her on my drive in.
Jenna [00:00:39] I'm so excited about my knees. I have to share.
Angela [00:00:42] K-N-E-E, your knees?
Jenna [00:00:43] My knees.
Angela [00:00:45] Okay, what's happening?
Jenna [00:00:46] Okay, you know, my knees have been aching from my tamoxifen for so long that it became this baseline existence. I didn't complain about it much. You're like, "Oh, I've heard you complain about a lot of things," but I've been keeping the knees to myself.
Angela [00:01:01] Knees weren't on the list.
Jenna [00:01:03] But I went to acupuncture yesterday for my hot flashes (which are back, which you've gotten many messages about) and while I was there, I just offhandedly said, "By the way, my knees are also super achy." Lady, I left that acupuncture session, 35 minutes of acupuncture, with my knees not aching. It was one of those things, you know, like when you're sick and then you get better and you're like, "Oh my God, I was so sick. I didn't even realize that cold was so bad." That's how my knees were. I forgot knees could be forgettable. Like, I'm just walking around, not thinking about how bad my knees hurt.
Angela [00:01:42] We parked at the same time and we got right into catching up, you know, chatter. I thought you had a pep in your step. I just thought you were in a really good mood, but maybe it's also because you don't have pain when you walk.
Jenna [00:01:59] Yeah, so all my tamoxifen ladies, I just want to throw it out there. If you're having the achy joints, which is a very common side effect, the acupuncture was great.
Angela [00:02:10] Okay.
Jenna [00:02:11] Not working on the hot flashes right now, but that's alright. We're one thing at a time.
Angela [00:02:16] Okay, one thing at a time.
Jenna [00:02:17] Alright, should we get into this episode? Because we had a very hilarious start to our day (so far) involving you, Angela.
Angela [00:02:25] Yeah, well, in honor of today's episode, you guys, I am dressed in Dwight's mustard shirt and I brought a brown tie, but I didn't know how to tie it. Josh was already gone when I was getting dressed. Sam tried, then Jenna tried.
Sam [00:02:40] First, I gave up. I immediately gave up. I couldn't remember, I panicked. My mind went completely blank. I'd never put a tie on before and then it took two minutes for all my life to come back to me.
Angela [00:02:51] Oh my goodness.
Jenna [00:02:52] I tried. Eventually Sam got it. It's not great though, Sam.
Sam [00:02:57] [laughing] No, it's not ideal.
Jenna [00:02:58] To be fair, the back part is longer than the front part, but it's on. It's a win.
Angela [00:03:03] It is on and do I look like Dwight?
Jenna [00:03:04] No, I mean you look kind of adorable.
Sam [00:03:06] Yes, you do.
Angela [00:03:08] Oh, thank you. Well, why don't we tell everyone what we're doing today?
Jenna [00:03:12] Yes, this is a perfect example of what I love about our new format for Office Ladies 6.0.
Angela [00:03:19] Yeah, it was inspired by a letter sent in from Christie D. in Wheeling, West Virginia. She titled her letter, "Diaries of the Mustard Shirt."
Jenna [00:03:31] You were so excited when you got this piece of mail. You told me we are doing an episode about Dwight's mustard shirt. And you have not told me what Christy sent in. You got this letter, snail mail, and you have hidden it from me.
Angela [00:03:42] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And also, Jenna, then this led you to have the idea to deep dive Pam's cardigans. So today's episode is Dwight's Mustard Shirt and Pam's Cardigans, and we both have some fun nuggets to share. We have not told each other. I have something that I am so excited for you to hear. It is from someone you know very well, and you do not know this information about Dwight Shirt.
Jenna [00:04:08] Wow.
Angela [00:04:09] I know!
Jenna [00:04:10] Okay, well first, let's start with our chit chat suggestion sent in by Melissa C. From Washington.
Melissa C. [00:04:18] Hey ladies, so my chit chat suggestion is the opposite of pet peeves. Plenty of people have pet peeves, little things that drive them crazy, but I'm wondering if you guys have anything that I like to call dainty delights, just little random things in life that bring you a disproportionate amount of joy. A couple of those things for me are: if I'm able to do the perfect eyeliner swoop in one stroke. I could squeal for joy. Or if I have just the right amount of an ingredient when I'm cooking something, it just brings me so much satisfaction. So I would just love to hear what your dainty delights are. Thanks ladies!
Angela [00:05:00] I just love the expression "dainty delights."
Jenna [00:05:03] Same.
Angela [00:05:04] And you know, Melissa, I thought a lot about this when we chose this chit chat for this week, because I realized something about myself that I hadn't really put together before.
Jenna [00:05:14] What is it?
Angela [00:05:16] That dainty delights are what get me through life. It's not really the big milestone moments, you know? That sometimes everyone, that's what they clamor on about. But the dainty delights just get me through whatever life throws my way.
Jenna [00:05:31] It's true. And I love this moment to name them and to think about them because I thought of so many little things.
Angela [00:05:39] Same, same.
Jenna [00:05:42] Alright, what'd you think of?
Angela [00:05:43] I mean, just so many little things like, I just love my back porch. For years, I didn't really have a table. It was dirt and not enough concrete and we finally just made a space where I could put a table, and I love it. I sit out there a couple times a week, in the morning with just my cup of tea, and I just sit there and I listen to the birds and I look at my feeders and I'm just so happy.
Jenna [00:06:10] I know this about you. It's your most favorite place to be.
Angela [00:06:15] It is. One of the things I love to do, and I actually have one for you, lady, I made it for you. I did not bring it in today because I just want to bring it straight to your house. I love too repopulate succulents. So I have my big mama succulent, I call her. She's super old. She's really big. Whenever she's too full and starts leaning over her pot, I take a little piece and I put it in a pot. So now I have her children all around my house. Then also I'll just put it in the ground if one falls off. So I just have succulents everywhere. So I took some clippings from one of my big pots and I've put it into a pot for you.
Jenna [00:06:56] Oh, I'm so excited!
Angela [00:06:57] Yeah, but I love doing that. I've done that for people before and I'm done it for neighbors, or a teacher. It makes me so happy to see my succulent. I feel so connected to nature, in a way, and sharing nature like that. Those are two that came to the top of my mind.
Jenna [00:07:17] Well, I know I've shared this on the podcast before, that I love my first cup of coffee in the morning.
Angela [00:07:23] You do.
Jenna [00:07:24] I think I've also shared that my favorite way to have my first of coffee is in a handmade mug.
Angela [00:07:30] Right.
Jenna [00:07:31] Something made by hand, by a person. I just love touching a piece of art while I'm drinking that first cup of coffee. So I collect those. In general, I just like to drink coffee out of a mug. If I have to go somewhere in the morning, I don't love a travel mug.
Angela [00:07:50] Lady, I've never shared this with you. So I have a lot of tennis rituals you don't know. So I take my tea in a travel mug, a big one, to tennis in the morning. But I pack, in my tennis bag, a ceramic coffee mug that I then pour it into when I get to tennis because I don't like the metal. I don't know, I like the mug taste. Do you know what I mean?
Jenna [00:08:12] Well, that's what I do when we come to podcast. I bring it in the insulated thing, but then I have my pockets mug that I pour it into when I get here. But when I do school drop-off, I still want coffee, and I'm just going to do the school route and then drive home. I've got an hour loop to do all the drop-offs and all the things and I want coffee with me. But I don't wanna drink it out of a to-go mug. So my dainty delight is that I found a ceramic travel mug. It is basically a mug without a handle that fits in your cup holder. It comes with a washable lid.
Angela [00:08:55] But you're drinking out of ceramic?
Jenna [00:08:57] Yes, while I'm driving. I don't even put the lid on because I'm just...
Angela [00:09:02] You're crazy like that.
Jenna [00:09:04] I am. But it's funny because in the carpool line, there's always this one other mom that I see and she's got a full regular mug of coffee with her. We've talked about it. I've been like, "I see you. I know this," because I've done that. I've driven with a mug of coffee. I've gone for walks in my neighborhood holding a mug of coffee in the morning.
Angela [00:09:27] I once sent you a picture, I was on vacation and I took a mug of tea on my walk and I sent it to you, not knowing this about you until right this moment. And Jenna, I remember what you wrote back. You were like, "Oh, this is my favorite thing." This whole time I thought that was because I was on a beach.
Jenna [00:09:48] [laughing] No.
Angela [00:09:49] It's because I had a mug in my hand.
Jenna [00:09:52] Because you were walking on the beach with a mug of your drink.
Angela [00:09:53] You remember the one I sent you from Hawaii?
Jenna [00:09:56] Yes, I do.
Angela [00:09:57] And I was like, "Oh, she loves Hawaii." Not that you don't, but it was the mug.
Jenna [00:10:02] Yes, so when I found this item, it was at a little breakfast place and I saw it and I exclaimed. I was like, "Look at this, I've been looking for it." Cause it is really hard to drive with a mug of coffee.
Angela [00:10:17] Well, it's probably not safe.
Jenna [00:10:18] It's not a good idea for me. But I immediately texted the other coffee mug mom and I was like, "I'm gonna make your day right now. Look at what I found." So that is my dainty delight. I really love it every morning. I have found a way that no matter where I'm going or what I'm doing, I can have my coffee out of a ceramic mug, my travel one. It's not handmade.
Angela [00:10:42] But it serves a purpose.
Jenna [00:10:44] Yeah, but I bet I could find a handmade version of it. It just has to fit in a cup holder, basically.
Angela [00:10:51] I think this might be a case for a Mom Detectives.
Jenna [00:10:54] Or a lady who Googles.
Angela [00:10:56] Sort of one and the same. Sam, do you have a dainty delight?
Sam [00:11:01] I do. I think this counts. The last two or three times that I've come home from the studio recording here, the music I've been listening to, the song has faded out exactly as I'm parking my car. Like when I turn my key off, it's the last cymbal or the last guitar is just ringing out and I turn my key off. It's as close to what I imagine doing heroin must be like. Just this warm, gooey feeling that spreads over me for at least an hour.
Angela [00:11:29] That is such a feeling of satisfaction, though, when anything times out that way.
Sam [00:11:35] That and I recommend the subreddit r/thingsfittingperfectly. It's just a collection of somebody buying a DVD and it perfectly fitting into the missing slot that they had on their shelf. Or a puzzle piece being put in. The last puzzle piece is a popular one. It's all this feeling, this dainty delight or that gooey feeling you get
Angela [00:11:56] I love it.
Jenna [00:11:57] I love It. Matt, what about you?
Matt [00:12:00] Sam, I love when the song ends right as you're pulling it. There's nothing like that.
Jenna [00:12:06] Is this particularly a man thing?
Sam [00:12:09] I think it might be a straight white guy thing. It might be you imagining you're walking off stage, having just performed.
Angela [00:12:15] You're in your own music video?
Matt [00:12:17] I forgot about that, I love that. I do love my mugs. I found a dainty delight in a very unexpected place, which is the physical therapy that I've been going to recently. I had a minor knee injury and I was really not looking forward to going to physical therapy. And it is the best vibes in there. It's this husband and wife shop and there's all these people in there and they were talking about their hip replacements and shoulder replacements and you get the special treatment: ice packs and the electric zapper thing on your knee. It's really become the highlight of my week. I have friends in there, we chat about our injuries, we chat music and sports. It's just, you never know where you're gonna find community.
Jenna [00:12:55] I love it.
Angela [00:12:56] That really makes me happy.
Jenna [00:12:59] I think that's... You're going tomorrow. You can't wait.
Matt [00:13:01] I can't wait.
Angela [00:13:02] You can't wait. That's the highlight of your week.
Jenna [00:13:06] Oh my gosh. Well, Melissa, thank you so much.
Angela [00:13:09] Yeah, we really enjoyed that chit chat and we're going to take a break and when we come back, it's time for Diaries of the Mustard Shirt.
audio cue [00:13:18] [musical sting]
Jenna [00:13:28] Alright, we're back and Angela and Sam have been, I don't know, in secret discussions about some secret clip.
Angela [00:13:35] I sent a secret clip this morning.
Jenna [00:13:37] Okay.
Angela [00:13:38] Mm-hmm. Well, my share today is all about Dwight's mustard shirt. If you remember, when we had our amazing costume designer on the podcast, Carrey Bennett, she talked about how when she was putting together the costumes for The Office, she went to an actual paper company called the "Glendale Paper Company" to observe the look and the feel of this small business. Many of those looks inspired the look of the Dunder Mifflin employees. Including the very famous Dwight wolf t-shirt, but I wanted to start this section with a very special message from a dear friend. Who had an inside scoop on the origin of the very first Dwight short sleeve button down shirt.
Jenna [00:14:24] Okay.
Angela [00:14:25] Here it is.
Holiday [00:14:27] Hey everybody, hey Office Ladies, it's me, Holliday: wife of Rainn Wilson for 300 years, a little over 30 years. It's so good to be here. I know that there's been some talk and magic and mystery about the origin of Dwight's mustard shirt. So I just wanted to add a little story to the trivia pot on this one. As I said, Rainn and I have been together a long time, and whenever he'd get an audition, we would kind of make up a costume, you know? There weren't that many auditions back in those days, and we were really, really broke. So we would always go and get stuff for the audition. So in this case, for The Office, they went in for the first audition and he read for a bunch of roles, but then didn't get a callback for, like, six months. So by the time he heard about this callback, I was really, really pregnant and we were even more broke. So we were like, "Oh my God, we got to find this outfit for this character." And I was inspired by pictures of my father, who was a dentist, and he was the president of his dental school class and he wore these really shirts. Just like that: short sleeved, pen protector and we were like, "Where can we go for that?" So we went to Sears at the Oaks. I don't even know if Sears exists anymore, but anyway. We were looking for flammable, something that would catch fire. That really fake material, had to be the color of what might be the inside of a diaper. We found the mustard shirt and this green one. And then went home and did a bunch of stuff with the hair and that part came out of it. So then it went really well, as we can see, and they tried lots of different costumes and just kept going back to that mustard shirt. They're like, "Listen, you gotta go buy them out from Sears." So we went back to Oaks, got them all and there you have it. So I'm wondering if NBC owes me money, frankly. But listen, love you guys, love all you all. Just wanna send a thank you shout out to you, Angela, and you, and Steve, and Nancy for coming and supporting our organization, Lide' on the tennis court. And if you ever need any costume ideas for a new tennis dress or whatever, I will take you shopping. Love you, bye.
Jenna [00:17:09] That is amazing. And Lady, while she was telling that story, I pulled up Rainn's audition video and he is wearing - He looks like in the video, he's wearing the kind of greenish one.
Angela [00:17:23] Cause they bought two.
Jenna [00:17:25] But the whole look, like, the hair... It's amazing. I had no idea. Wow.
Angela [00:17:34] Isn't that just so fantastic? Just their partnership, their marriage is so special. They are just really each other's rock. It transported me back to those early days, you know, when you had an audition and you're scrambling with your friend or your partner. Just like, "Can you help me put together this outfit? Like, I want to look the part."
Jenna [00:17:56] Again, it's an example of how open Greg was to our vision of our characters. Because he borrowed so much of what we put into our auditions: costume, hair, look, all of it.
Angela [00:18:11] Yeah. So I've been holding on to this for so long, because when I was at the Lide' Haiti dinner that we had after the tennis event, some fans had put together questions and they wanted to ask Rainn about this mustard shirt, this iconic look. And he was like, "Well, really Holiday is the one that should answer that question." And she told the story and I was like, "Oh my goodness, we have to share this on the podcast."
Jenna [00:18:37] Yeah.
Angela [00:18:37] I mean, I never knew that they put the outfit together themselves.
Jenna [00:18:41] Amazing.
Angela [00:18:42] Amazing. And I do want to say there are some comparisons online to Dwight's look to that of two different characters on the movie "Office Space" from 1999. David Herman plays Michael Bolton and Steven Root, who plays Milton, both kind of have this short sleeve button down shirt look.
Jenna [00:19:00] Yeah.
Angela [00:19:00] That probably looked a lot like Holiday's dad.
Jenna [00:19:03] Yeah.
Angela [00:19:04] That was sort of that outdated style. I did a side-by-side, because I know you love a side by side. And I'll put it in our stories, but I do see it. Here it is.
Jenna [00:19:20] Oh, yeah, I see it. There's something about the short-sleeve shirt with the tie. It's just a special kind of...
Angela [00:19:27] Person?
Jenna [00:19:29] Yeah, I get it. It's like, you're hot under your suit jacket. I mean, especially as a woman with hot flashes.
Angela [00:19:38] You would do the shirt.
Jenna [00:19:39] I would do a short sleeve shirt under my blazer.
Angela [00:19:42] Well, I went to the show bible to see what it said about Dwight's shirts. Per the show bible, this is what it says. "Dwight doesn't like long sleeve shirts, not enough blood circulating to his hands."
Jenna [00:19:56] Yes, he has a line about that.
Angela [00:19:58] "And he has the shirt guy in the garment district of New York."
Jenna [00:20:02] Wow.
Angela [00:20:02] Wow. But now let's really dig in with this fantastic letter sent in from Christie D. in Wheeling, West Virginia. Here's the opening paragraph. Titled "Diaries of the Mustard Shirt." "Dear Office Ladies, I know Dwight is known for wearing a mustard shirt. I decided to find out if that is truly his favorite shirt. Let me first explain how I broke down the shirts. If the opening was a different shirt than the rest of the show, it counted. If the open was the same day as the rest of the shows, it only counted as one shirt. If there was a flashback, it did not count." Then, in parentheses, she said, "I did count the tux worn in threat level midnight because it was such a big part of the episode. And at this point, I'm just making up the rules as I go."
Jenna [00:20:48] Okay, got it.
Angela [00:20:50] "If Dwight wore a shirt then changed and changed back into the original shirt, it only counted as one shirt. For example, season two, episode six, Dwight has on a mustard shirt, then he changes for the fight, then he changed back to the mustard shirt when they get back to office. That only counts as one mustard shirt." I mean, she really dug in, lady.
Jenna [00:21:08] I appreciate that she has a system.
Angela [00:21:10] Well, lady, I went through her entire accounting of every single type of shirt that Dwight wore. It's 11 pages.
Jenna [00:21:18] Wow.
Angela [00:21:19] Season by season. And since my focus today is about specifically Dwight's mustard shirt, here are some of the stats from Christie's document. In season one, no mustard shirt the entire season. Dwight wore these colors: shades of gray, lightish-brownish-green, and one black anime shirt.
Jenna [00:21:39] Wow, but all short sleeve.
Angela [00:21:41] All short sleeve. Oh, this is a short sleeve document here.
Jenna [00:21:44] Okay, short sleeve is assumed.
Angela [00:21:47] Yes. In season two, we have our very first mustard shirt sighting, episode two, "Sexual Harassment." In the original version, if you go to one minute and 33 seconds, Dwight's iconic mustard shirt makes its television debut.
Jenna [00:22:03] I can't believe that we didn't get a mustard shirt until season two. It kind of blows my mind.
Angela [00:22:08] Yeah, it was shades of grays and light blues and greens. In season two, there were a total of seven mustard sightings. In season three, there was a total of nine mustard shirts. Season four has seven. Then we have the trifecta of the big mustard shirt seasons. Are you ready?
Jenna [00:22:27] Yes.
Angela [00:22:27] Season five is our big winner: 22 mustard shirts.
Jenna [00:22:31] What?! Wait, season five had 26 episodes and he wore 22 mustard shirts?
Angela [00:22:37] Correct.
Jenna [00:22:38] Wow.
Angela [00:22:39] Then season six had 15 mustard shirts, season seven had 18. Season eight had 7, season nine had 6, a total of 91 mustard shirts in the entire series. Okay.
Jenna [00:22:52] Okay. 201 episodes of The Office, 91 mustard shirts.
Angela [00:22:56] There you go.
Jenna [00:22:57] Wow.
Angela [00:22:58] Lastly, I really thought we should hear from Dwight himself on how he regards his famous mustard shirt. It's from season five, episode nine, "Frame Toby"
clip from The Office - Michael [00:23:08] Okay, let's get this started.
clip from The Office - Dwight [00:23:13] I am the bait.
clip from The Office - Michael [00:23:15] For what?
clip from The Office - Dwight [00:23:16] Men find me desirable.
clip from The Office - Michael [00:23:17] No, no, no.
clip from The Office - Dwight [00:23:18] Oh, it's a good day, too. I'm wearing my mustard shirt.
clip from The Office - Michael [00:23:20] You're the bait for Toby? No.
Angela [00:23:23] "It's a good day, too. I'm wearing my mustard shirt."
Jenna [00:23:26] Yeah. I love it that we refer to it as "a mustard shirt."
Angela [00:23:29] It's perfect. I want to wrap up my Dwight's mustard shirt section of this episode with this that I've read online. I was really curious. If Dwight thinks his mustard shirt is his lucky shirt, right? It's a good day because he's wearing his mustard shirt. Then what does liking the color yellow say about you?
Jenna [00:23:52] Oh.
Angela [00:23:52] So this is according to "Empower Yourself with Color Psychology," I found on the internet. There was a whole list of different characteristics of your personality, but here are the ones I thought spoke to Dwight. "If your favorite color is yellow, you might have a personality that can be very critical of yourself as well as others. You are a perfectionist. You analyze everything, all the time, and are methodical in your thinking. With a yellow personality, you're impulsive and make quick decisions, but often out of anxiety, jump in too quickly and rush things rather than taking things at a steady pace." Maybe Dwight, maybe not on that one.
Jenna [00:24:32] Yeah.
Angela [00:24:33] Oh, it also said, "You have a happy disposition and are cheerful and fun to be with." So maybe not Dwight on that. It also says "You have a strong, independent streak in you and are selective with your choice of friends, keeping a small group of close and like-minded friends rather than being involved in team events or large social gatherings."
Jenna [00:24:52] Very Dwight.
Angela [00:24:53] Very Dwight. You like to think you are intelligent and well-educated with knowledge about many topics.
Jenna [00:25:00] Yes.
Angela [00:25:01] You are good at anything that involves the mind, rather than physical pursuits: chess, crosswords, card games, et cetera.
Jenna [00:25:07] I don't know...
Angela [00:25:08] I don't know.
Jenna [00:25:09] Where's paintball fallin' there?
Angela [00:25:11] Also, he was pretty good at basketball.
Jenna [00:25:13] Yeah.
Angela [00:25:15] Alright, here are the final two. "You are a smart dresser and always dress to impress." Now, I think Dwight did like to dress nice. I think, in his mind, he took pride in his suit.
Jenna [00:25:31] Yes, he did. Just because it maybe didn't land on others as fashionable, it doesn't mean he wasn't making an effort to be polished each day in his way.
Angela [00:25:39] Exactly. And then lastly, "If you like the color yellow, you can also be arrogant, pretentious, and snobbish." And if you want to get Dwight's look, you can go to tvstyleguide.com. It's got the whole list of everything that makes up a Dwight look.
Jenna [00:25:57] That was delightful. It was especially delightful coming from you dressed as you are. I wish everyone had a visual of this because it really was great.
Angela [00:26:06] Here, take a picture and I'll put it in our stories. Alright, I'm very excited to hear all about Pam's cardigan.
Jenna [00:26:13] Well, it's interesting because initially, when we talked about this, I was gonna talk about the history of pantyhose.
Angela [00:26:19] You were.
Jenna [00:26:20] Because I wore so many pairs of panties hose as Pam. But when I started to deep dive it, it was kind of meh. Like, it wasn't inspiring me. So I pivoted and I started to deep-dive the cardigan sweater (something else that I wore a lot of on The Office) and it did not disappoint. And lady, I think you, in particular, are going to love this.
Angela [00:26:44] Oh my goodness. I'm so excited. You did bring a cardigan in today.
Jenna [00:26:47] I'm not wearing it because of my hot flashes, but it's here. It's on the back of my chair. So according to the internet (because I read several articles) the cardigan is named after James Thomas Brudenell, the seventh Earl of Cardigan.
Angela [00:27:07] So fancy!
Jenna [00:27:09] Yes! And it dates back to the mid-19th century. Thomas Brudenell was a British army officer who was famous for leading the charge of the Light Brigade during the Crimean War. That could be a whole other podcast. This charge, it did not go well.
Angela [00:27:31] Oh, is this "the Office Ladies do history?"
Jenna [00:27:34] Yes. Basically, he led a group of men on horses. They had swords and they charged the Russians, who had artillery.
Angela [00:27:44] This is the cardigan guy?
Jenna [00:27:46] Yeah.
Angela [00:27:47] Okay. Swords versus artillery.
Jenna [00:27:52] Basically, they had gotten some bad military intelligence.
Angela [00:27:55] Sounds like it.
Jenna [00:27:56] But this whole battle, it made him famous. Of the men who were in the charge, there were several fatalities and people taken as prisoners. But they were praised for their bravery in carrying out orders when they were so outmatched. They didn't give up. They were like, "This is what we were going to do, so we're going to it." Anyway, long story short, he became famous. When he was in battle, he wore this kind of knitted wool jacket and this jacket is considered the inspiration for the modern day cardigan. It looked like a vest with buttons in the front.
Angela [00:28:36] OK.
Jenna [00:28:37] And then later they added arms to it.
Angela [00:28:40] So it started as a vest.
Jenna [00:28:41] As a knitted vest with buttons, then they added arms. And it soon became a staple of the British Army's attire. It was this garment, it could keep them warm in battle, but it was also easily removed because they used to have pullover sweaters and stuff. But you don't have time for that. You're in battle. You gotta get that off quick if you're hot. Also, unlike a traditional military jacket, it didn't restrict their movement. It was really easy to move their arms.
Angela [00:29:15] Dwight would relate, by the way.
Jenna [00:29:16] Yes, he would love this.
Angela [00:29:18] Because he needs circulation to his hands.
Jenna [00:29:20] Yes, this knitted military jacket, basically, transforms into the cardigan and was made famous by this guy. So then by the late 1800's, it kind of transitioned into everyday fashion. It was mostly worn by gentlemen while hunting or fishing. So this really originated as a men's garment. But then by early 20th century, it made its way into women's fashion. This was because knitting became a very popular hobby for women. The cardigan was really an easy thing to knit and customize. It was post-war, people were trying to save money. The sweater really moved into women's fashion as well. Then Coco Chanel loved the cardigan and she is credited with bringing the cardigan into the forefront of high fashion. Do you see how the cardigan has moved from the battlefield all the way to Coco Chanel?
Angela [00:30:18] Yeah.
Jenna [00:30:18] Come on. Then in the 1950's, the cardigan gained popularity in the United States because people like Grace Kelly and Marilyn Monroe were frequently photographed wearing a cardigan. For women, cardigans were considered stylish and preppy. For men they were still going strong, but they were sort of for if you were an intellectual or an academic. Like, Albert Einstein wore a lot of cardigans. So if you wear a smarty pants, you might be in a cardigan now. Then of course, in the 1980's with grunge fashion, you had Kurt Cobain rocking the slouchy cardigans. So the cardigan is kind of just an amazing item of clothing. It has evolved over time, it has taken so many forms, But in all of its forms, it is functional, practical, it can be styled up or down, and it's a really great way to add warmth to an outfit or to remove if you get too hot. That brings me to Pam, who wears her cardigan to face a sort of different kind of artillery: the word vomit that is Michael Scott. I feel that's a special battle that she went to every day, in her cardigan. I wore so many cardigans on The Office. I still regret that I didn't capitalize on that and put out a line of cardigans.
Angela [00:31:37] You still can!
Jenna [00:31:39] I know...
Angela [00:31:40] Never say never. I could totally see "Pam's Sweaters brought to you by Jenna Fisher" at some department store.
Jenna [00:31:47] I know, how do people do that? How do you get a perfume? How do we get a wine? How you get a cardigan? I don't understand.
Angela [00:31:56] I don't know. Lady, remember when we very first started the podcast, I'm talking 2019.
Jenna [00:32:01] You're gonna bring up the rosé.
Angela [00:32:03] I said I wanted an Office Ladies rosé!
Jenna [00:32:06] You about killed me with that.
Angela [00:32:08] I'd started doing research.
Jenna [00:32:10] Lady, I talked to a winery about it!
Angela [00:32:12] I know.
Jenna [00:32:14] It was so hard. It was a whole other job.
Angela [00:32:16] It's another job. And we're like, "We already have a job."
Jenna [00:32:21] But how do people have the bandwidth for all these variations of themselves? I don't know.
Angela [00:32:27] I don't know, but I love that you immediately were like, "You're gonna talk about the rosé."
Jenna [00:32:31] I mean, that was like a year of my life. Anyway.
Angela [00:32:34] I mean, Brian Cranston...
Jenna [00:32:36] They have their mezcal!
Angela [00:32:38] Mezcal!
Jenna [00:32:39] I know.
Angela [00:32:40] Where's the Office Ladies rosé?
Jenna [00:32:43] Where is it? Where's Pam's cardigans?
Angela [00:32:45] I don't know.
Jenna [00:32:46] Jenna Fischer's Cardigans.
Angela [00:32:49] I don't know. Angela Martin's cat beds. Where are they?
Jenna [00:32:52] Where are these things?! Who does this?!
Angela [00:32:56] How do you do the side hustle? Someone write us.
Jenna [00:32:59] Ah, so anyway, I wore a lot of cardigans on The Office. We've discussed before how the costume department made each of us a closet of clothes. Mine had pencil skirts, button down shirts and cardigans and they would just mix and match them for various episodes. It was really important to the reality of our characters that we repeat clothing, so you see things repeat. It's funny because I found a ton of articles of people breaking down Pam's cardigans according to their colors and how they relate to the episodes. I just want everyone to know, that was intentional. You are right on. My color palette was mostly pastels, shades of pink or mint green or light blue. But I did also wear some more muted colors. There were some grays, there were some beiges. There was purpose to what colors were chosen each week. Like, for example, I'm wearing a beige cardigan in the episode, "The Secret" and that is the episode where Jim tells Pam that he 100% does not have a crush on her anymore. So we wanted me to be muted, you know? Because my heart is being muted. Then also there were times when things were scripted, like in "The Merger." Pam says, "Oh, my mom knitted this for me."
Angela [00:34:23] Mm-hmm.
Jenna [00:34:24] There's a lot of chatter online about whether or not that was truly a hand-knit cardigan. I want everyone to know when we broke down that episode, I revealed that it was not. It was store-bought, but there were modifications made. We added that big chunky button. We tried to add things to make it look hand-knit. But we got that script one week ahead. Who's fast-knitting this sweater for me? I guess they could have found a hand knit sweater, but we're going for something specific.
Angela [00:34:52] Also though, in a time crunch, it's just harder to find those very specific handmade things.
Jenna [00:34:59] And you need duplicates of everything. Every outfit we had two of, in case you got coffee spilled on it, or who knows what. I don't know, but every outfit had a duplicate outfit.
Angela [00:35:11] Right.
Jenna [00:35:12] So to find two identical hand knit sweaters in five days, that was a challenge.
Angela [00:35:17] Yeah, exactly.
Jenna [00:35:18] The color I wore the least, that I only wore for holiday episodes, was red. My favorite cardigan is that vintage holiday cardigan that I wear.
Angela [00:35:30] It's so great.
Jenna [00:35:31] I'm still bummed I don't have it.
Angela [00:35:32] We have scoured the internet to see if there's another one out there. They don't make it anymore.
Jenna [00:35:38] Yes. But everyone, if you pay attention to Pam's arc, whatever she's going through emotionally, and you note her cardigan, there is often a correlation, and that was intentional. One final thing, Angela, you know, and we've shared before, that they always tried to buy our clothing at stores that reflected the price point of what our characters could actually afford. From whatever our salary might be at Dunder Mifflin. This was true of all of my sweaters, but there's one very big exception. It's my finale cardigan. That's the gray cardigan, with the sequins, that I wear in that final talking head. That was by Diane von Furstenberg. It costs around $300, but we wanted Pam to literally shine. That was her last cardigan.
Angela [00:36:24] You literally sparkled. Like, the light hits all those little stones and you shimmer.
Jenna [00:36:31] Yes, and I did keep that one. I have a blue one, a pink one, and I have the sparkly one.
Angela [00:36:35] Oh, that's great.
Jenna [00:36:37] So that's your little history on the cardigan and a little bit more info on Pam's cardigans, everybody.
Angela [00:36:45] Well, I loved every second of that and I loved how much thought went into our show and how many layers there were to just any episode you watch.
Jenna [00:36:54] Well, it's true. Something as simple as a work shirt or a cardigan. They were items of clothing, but they were used to tell a story.
Angela [00:37:02] 100%. I mean, Angela Martin definitely had her different outfits for different occasions.
Jenna [00:37:07] Even though they were all shades of gray.
Angela [00:37:09] And cream.
Jenna [00:37:11] Alright, well, why don't we take a break? We'll be back with some Around the Town and our Office question of the week.
audio cue [00:37:25] [musical sting]
Jenna [00:37:25] Alright, we are back, and our first around the town comes from Sally S. in Evansville, Indiana, who said, "This weekend, our local Girls on the Run Council held the celebratory 5K events for the girls in our program. I was honored to serve as the head for our planning committee, and I'm so proud of our team for putting on the largest and most successful event in our county. Shout out to all of the GotR councils across the US who offer this amazing program and put on the celebratory 5Ks. You are making a difference in so many young girls' lives." Oh, Sally, this is great. I've shared before, my sister is a Girls on the Run volunteer. She helps plan and participate in the 5K event each year in St. Louis. She loves being a part of this program.
Angela [00:38:15] What a great organization. Sally, thanks for writing in. Our next one is from William S. in Orange County, California. William says, "In what might be the most wholesome community event ever, Orange County Speed Puzzlers hosted an all-day puzzle hangout for members of the local jigsaw puzzling community. Puzzlers of all skill levels met in Mission Viejo to enjoy each other's company over their shared love of jigsaws puzzles. From group puzzling to individual speed puzzling, to a 500-piece team speed puzzling challenge, to puzzle piece stacking and more. This unique event was essentially a day of summer camp activities for adults."
Jenna [00:38:56] I wanna go.
Angela [00:38:58] That sounds so fun!
Jenna [00:38:59] I love to puzzle. I love puzzling.
Angela [00:39:01] I love puzzling. You know, that time of year where it's rainy and whatever and you don't go out as much. I'm like, "Ooh, let's bust out a puzzle."
Jenna [00:39:10] Yeah, I love Ravensburger.
Angela [00:39:12] Yes, they're the best!
Jenna [00:39:13] That's the best puzzle.
Angela [00:39:14] Yes, agree.
Jenna [00:39:15] They have a new series right now called "the Cozy Series." It's all exactly what it sounds like. A cozy ski cabin, a cozy beach cabin, a cozy reading nook. And you puzzle this little cozy world. There's always a cup of warm liquid and there's a little puppy or something sitting on a rug.
Angela [00:39:37] Or in a basket. Lady, for your Yankee Swap Christmas party this past year, if you remember - I know you loved that I brought the disco ball and the champagne.
Jenna [00:39:45] Very much.
Angela [00:39:46] But we had to bring five gifts because it was my whole family, and one of our gifts was a big box with three Ravensburger puzzles in it.
Jenna [00:39:54] It was a hot item.
Angela [00:39:55] I know.
Jenna [00:39:55] It got stolen.
Angela [00:39:57] Multiple times. Not stolen for real, but in the game.
Jenna [00:39:59] Of course. They're really the best. Talk about a dainty delight, the feeling of a Ravensburger puzzle piece.
Angela [00:40:08] If you need something to bring to a Yankee swap, let me tell you, that was heavily traded.
Jenna [00:40:12] Can I also tell you that I was at a party and someone shared with me that instead of a book club, they have a puzzle club. Once a month they get together, they order takeout and they drink wine and they just puzzle until the puzzle's done.
Angela [00:40:27] That sounds like an amazing evening.
Jenna [00:40:29] I know, and you don't have to do anything ahead of time.
Angela [00:40:33] I have friends back in my hometown in Texas that get together and they do embroidery and they call it Stitch n' Bitch.
Jenna [00:40:45] [laughing] Alright, our last Around the Town is coming from Grace H. in Connecticut, who said, "Ladies, I have listened to the podcast since the very beginning when I would put it on as I drove to high school. I am now graduating college. I am completing my bachelor's of architecture at Syracuse University."
Angela [00:41:02] Woo-hoo!
Jenna [00:41:03] Yes, "and your podcast has been by my side from late nights making models, to walking around campus and everywhere in between. I'm so excited for what's next for me and can't wait to be listening to the podcast wherever I end up." Well, congratulations, Grace, and to everyone graduating this spring. We get a lot of graduation announcements in our snail mail as well.
Angela [00:41:25] Yep.
Jenna [00:41:26] And we thought we could shout a few of those out.
Angela [00:41:28] Yeah, let's do it.
Jenna [00:41:30] Jessica G from Fort Wayne graduated from Indiana University of Diagnostic Medical Sonography.
Angela [00:41:36] Gianna A. from Leesburg, Florida, graduated high school with plans to attend Southeastern University and major in ministerial leadership.
Jenna [00:41:44] Justina from New Jersey is graduating college with a Graphic Design and Fine Arts major, and she is currently working in Philly. It's kind of like Justina is living Pam's life, if Pam had gotten her degree.
Angela [00:41:58] And finally, congrats to Carly S. from Enterprise, Alabama, Sarah G. from Joliet Junior College, Katie M. from San Antonio, Texas, and Hannah B. from Arkansas. We got your announcements, and we are wishing you all the best.
Jenna [00:42:11] We really love getting these announcements each spring, so please keep them coming. Our P.O. box is on our website. We did want to say one thing though. We are very sorry, but we cannot accommodate autograph requests. So please do not send us your Funko Pop box because they get sorted out. And we don't want you to not have that.
Angela [00:42:32] But we love hearing from you guys. Please, when you write us your letters, when you send us your graduation announcements, your wedding invitations, all of those are so wonderful. We'll share things like that in Around the Town.
Jenna [00:43:35] Alright, I think it's time for us to move on to our Office question of the week. But dare I say, reading people's Around the Towns is another dainty delight?
Angela [00:43:43] It is.
Jenna [00:43:44] Thank you.
Angela [00:43:45] Way to bring it full circle, lady.
Jenna [00:43:47] Alright, this is from Louise F. from Scotland, who said, "Hey, Office Ladies, I have always wondered what would happen if someone was the main focus of an episode one week, but when it came to filming, they were so ill that they couldn't come to set? Would the episode be rewritten or filmed a different week? Surely with the amount of episodes you guys filmed, this was bound to happen at some point." Oh, Louise.
Angela [00:44:13] Oh, Louise. Louise, first of all, hi from Scotland! I love Scotland. Okay, I just had to say that. Because I went there for my honeymoon. You know how much I love, Scotland. Okay, now I'm gonna focus.
Jenna [00:44:26] So here's the thing, we had to just go to work anyway, basically, is the short answer. There are so many moving parts and so many people involved in pulling an episode together, that if it was written and planned and there was a shoot schedule, it was very hard to undo that. And yes, every once in a while it happened. If someone was truly too sick to come to set, we might rearrange some of the week's schedule to give them an afternoon off or a morning off, or maybe the whole day off. But it was difficult and very rare.
Angela [00:45:02] It was very rare. They would try to, like Jenna said, move the schedule so maybe you could go home early. Pull up someone else's talking heads, things like that. But mostly we just muscled through it. The only time I remember us doing a big switcheroo was Dwight's speech. Because Rainn was so, so sick.
Jenna [00:45:24] And he was the focus of that episode.
Angela [00:45:27] We had to film at that hotel. That was one time, I remember, I got a call from our AD, and they were like, "Okay, the hotel has been canceled. We're moving things around. Rainn's going to the doctor, he's too sick." But really, I mean, you could probably count on one hand the number of times that happened.
Jenna [00:45:44] Yeah, there were sometimes life events, like a death in the family. I remember we made space for people, obviously, to go grieve and be with their families. But if someone was sick, you had to kind of just power through.
Angela [00:46:03] I mean, I had false labor and went to work the next day. I was in the hospital and they called, remember? Like, "Angela, are we having this baby tonight?" Cause it was the next day where Andy proposes and the Ferris wheel and all that. And I was, like, "I'll let you know?"
Jenna [00:46:20] I totally remember that. And listen, this is not exclusive to The Office. This is the entertainment industry. When I did the movie "Walk Hard," John C. Reilly got really sick. I think he had a strep throat or something and we had to do like a whole make out scene anyway. Then I got sick and I got so sick that I lost my voice. I had laryngitis. I couldn't speak and I was really sick. And they were like, "You still have to come to work." I'm like, "How? How? I can't speak." They're like, "We're gonna shoot some stuff where you're not talking today." I mean, it's like "You're gonna just show up."
Angela [00:47:01] It is pretty bonkers. We're kind of laughing because sometimes you look back at those moments, you're like, "What?" But it does involve so many moving parts and so many people that they are just constantly trying to make sure they make their day and get something shot because they have a limited time and a limited budget.
Jenna [00:47:19] Yes, and there is this element of "the show must go on." That's been a part of theatre and actors for all time. The show must on and there is that spirit when you're making a movie or you're makin' a TV show. I think I famously told the story of how incredibly sick I was one week at The Office and I took a bunch of Sudafed so I could make it through.
Angela [00:47:47] And didn't Greg say it was one of your best performances? Didn't he reach out to your agent or something?
Jenna [00:47:52] He called my manager and was like, "Jenna was incredible today. Incredible."
Angela [00:47:57] You're like, "I was super Sudafedded up."
Jenna [00:48:00] Exactly. I'm like, "Oh, I don't know what that says." But anyway, thank you for that question.
Angela [00:48:05] Yeah, we just powered through.
Jenna [00:48:08] We did.
Angela [00:48:09] Well, everyone, this was such a fun episode. Thank you so much for listening. I want to give a special thank you to Holliday Reinhorn for sharing her story about the origin of Dwight's button down shirt. Amazing. And of course, you guys, I'll put links in our stories where you can check out the amazing organization that Rainn and Holly have put so much of their heart and time into Lide Haiti. And thank you, to oh my goodness, the amazing Christy D. from Wheeling, West Virginia, who sent in the Diaries of the Mustard Shirt. What a delight. Talk about a dainty delight, was reading that.
Jenna [00:48:44] Thank you for inspiring this episode, Christy. We'll see you guys all next week.
Angela [00:48:49] See you then.
audio cue [00:48:49] [outro music plays]
Jenna [00:48:52] Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.
Angela [00:48:54] Office Ladies is a presentation of Audacy and is produced by Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey.
Jenna [00:48:59] Our senior producer is Matt Beagle and our audio engineer is Sam Kieffer.
Angela [00:49:04] Audacy's executive producer is Leah Reis-Dennis.
Jenna [00:49:07] Office Ladies was mixed and mastered by Bill Schultz.
Angela [00:49:10] Our theme song is "Rubber Tree" by Creed Bratton.